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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Columbia River Gorge, Oregon
Hi Everyone,

We are here to start a conversation about the Kayaksailor and folding craft.

If you have any questions regarding the rig let us know.

We are happy to discuss all topics regarding paddle-sailing.

Cheers,

David and Patti

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Paddle-sailing and loving life!

2 Pakboats XT 15s
Self built West Greenland style SOF
Self built Polar Greenland style SOF
Current Designs Squamish
Necky Eskia
Winderness Systems Tarpon 140
Ocean Kayak Prowler Trident 15


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:49 am 
recent arrival

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:38 am
Posts: 3
I just found out about it. Have a Klepper AEII and find the Sloop Rig to be complicated and workable for sailing only in limtied conditions: haven't bothered with amas etc.

I am getting one. I haven't been this excited in a very very long time.

I'll post a report. When the Water opens in a month or 2.

Cheers.

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Calgary AB CAN
60's Klepper 520 (Aerius II) with sail kit
80's Klepper Aerius 1


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:58 pm 
David and Patti, narrow topics are usually easier to discuss. Kayaksailor has its pros and cons as any sail rig, this depends on your boat and sailing plans/habits. Foldingcraft ... it's not a brand, AFAIK. It's a name of US dealer for Fujita kayaks and there is about a dozen different models in their line-up, so here I'm kinda lost. Very few people in North America own Fujita, and chances of finding somebody who sails one would be ... well, less than chances of finding somebody with Fujita/Foldingcraft...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:31 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 785
Location: manitouwadge ontario
I,m sure David and Patti were using folding craft as a generic term meaning all or any folder. You have probably seen Klepper America,s mount to put a "kayaksailor" on an Aerius 2. Incidentially i have asked David and Pattie if it,s possible to make a larger sail for the Aerius 2. Their present "large" sail is 1.6 sqm.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:38 pm 
Got it now. Too wide topic, IMO, when boat model isn't specified (and boat type, i.e. single or double, and number of people or amount of cargo, type of trip and so on).

As to that "Kayaksailor" - it looks to me like a NZ/AU hinged design on steroids - more sail area and added leeboards; more complicated, with more parts on deck (and NZ hinged is already a lot of jazz). Without outriggers 1.6 sq.m is large enough, even for AEII (if wind picks up, say, over 12 knots), and with outriggers it is too small for a boat of that size, even with one person. If outriggers are in plans, than BSD rig is the way to go.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:08 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 437
Location: atlanta, georgia
The "goodness" of the Kayaksailor rig is, like most things related to kayaks and sailing, specific to the task at hand. I have used the sail on two, separate weeklong kayak-camping trips in my Klepper Quattro in the Florida Keys. I have also logged countless hours with the rig on my Feathercraft BK on the intracoastal in S. Florida. It has performed well in "big" wind and seas and in gentle puffs. As for being complicated, it is anything but, and that is what makes me a fan. The sail deploys or stows without drama using a pair of control sheets. It takes literally 2 seconds to deploy or stow, and, once secure on deck, it is nearly invisible to the wind.

In very heavy wind, and I call that +20 knots, the sail has the uncanny ability to dump power and maintain control via a twisting sail head. Not sure I really understand it, but it works. I am not saying you could not capsize in a single with the Kayaksailor, but I don't think I could put the Klepper over if I tried.

In a big wind I can maintain a comfortable 6 mph on a reach and on a run I have kept up an 8mph speed (I know, some want to keep this in knots, but I have my GPS set to mph).

If I was on an Alaskan expedition, would I want outriggers? You bet. But for everything else I do I prefer the simplicity and efficiency of this rig.

I have not yet tried the Balogh rig, but I probably will in the near future...now that the company is under adult supervision :-) But, until I actually try it, I would not presume to offer an opinion about its functionality.

If anyone is in the Atlanta or Palm Beach area and wants to take a look at the rig I would be happy to oblige.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

2007 FC Big Kahuna
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kuvia sail rig
'69 AEII, S2 rig


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:05 pm 
BSD Batwing rig is designed for use with outriggers on most boats. Without outriggers it is too high-aspect, IMO. Though canoes with BSD canoe sail (different from Batwing) often choose monohull (sans outriggers), but then, it's a lower aspect sail and they don't normally sail large open water bodies (though some do, even with high-aspect Batwing, I saw it myself). Still, I think BSD Batwing "likes" outriggers.

OTH, low-aspect 1.6 sq.m sail like Kayaksailor (no, I didn't try it, this is just an opinion based on larger and smaller sails that I did try) should work better without outriggers. Especially on wide heavy boats. It is not big enough to pull heavy boat fast enough after outriggers have been added. Agreed, in Alaskan waters outriggers should be added for safety even if it's detrimental to speed, though I wouldn't bet how long one would survive in water in Florida winter if sh-t hits the fan - might not be long enough to rescue. On a narrow monohull one doesn't need sail larger than 1.6 sq.m, and 1.5 sq.m is plenty. Not to mention weak and small rudders that narrow kayaks are usually equipped with - FC single rudder isn't adequate for upwind sailing with sail larger than 1.5-2.0 sq.m, leaving stability (balance) aside. And if used for downwind, 1.6 sq.m Kayaksailor seems an overkill - a little large for narrow hull, and too much stuff on the deck, Pacific Action can do downwind and is simpler.

Here I have to admit again that don't quite understand what exactly the OP question was about; may be it wasn't a question, but a desire to talk/discuss Kayaksailor rig and folding boats in general; Ok then, we're talking... It's posted in Kayakmakers section - what company the OP is representing - Kayaksailor? If it's not a dealer/maker, probably this kind of talk could be moved to Coffehouse, no? :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:52 pm
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Location: Columbia River Gorge, Oregon
Hi Alex,

Dave and I are the OP's and we are also the designers and makers of the Kayaksailor rig.

Simply, the original post is an announcement that we are available and happy to answer questions one may have as to the compatibility of the Kayaksailor with a particular folder and have discussions about the Kayaksailor. My apologies for the confusion. The word folding craft was intended to be used as a general term for folding vessels.

Thanks for your input and opinions.   As you already know, sailing rigs exist in a wide variety of forms.  Each one excelling in certain areas.   A sailing rig is a tool, and as with any tool it should be matched to the job at hand.   If one wishes to sail on beam reaches or off the wind, there are a variety of "V"  and Hoop style sails available that can do the job.  If all out speed is the goal, Outriggered models are often the fastest since they allow very large sail area.

We designed the Kayaksailor  because we wanted something different, something that filled a gap between the large outrigger models and the simple off-the-wind rigs.    We decided not to add outriggers in order to preserve the handling and paddling characteristics designed into the hull.  It was important to have a rig that sailed upwind so we utilized foiled leeboards.  We wanted to make it as simple as possible to deploy and douse, be easily moved from boat to boat and most importantly, be engaging and fun to use.

The Kayaksailor does what we intended. It makes my kayak into a small performance oriented paddle-sailing craft thats easy and fun to use. Is it the best tool for the job? That depends on the job.

Cheers,

Patti

_________________
Paddle-sailing and loving life!

2 Pakboats XT 15s
Self built West Greenland style SOF
Self built Polar Greenland style SOF
Current Designs Squamish
Necky Eskia
Winderness Systems Tarpon 140
Ocean Kayak Prowler Trident 15


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:05 am 
Good upwind sailing requires (beside a good sail) a good rudder and some other things like more beam and less WWL. Of all the folding craft only Klepper and Longhaul have good rudders (incidentally they are also beamy and have large cockpit). Most other kayaks are lacking these features, which is something that Kayaksailor is probably aware of, and likely isn't able to change. That's why I was puzzled as to the direction of this "discussion" to begin with, and still am.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:52 pm
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Location: Columbia River Gorge, Oregon
The Kayaksailor sails fine upwind on most boats without a fixed rudder. We often use the rudder for convenience. It is nice to have the option to stow the paddle every now and again. Our Pakboat XT's came with a Smart Track rudder that works very well.

Mike placed us in the manufacturers section of this fine forum so that we could be here for people and post product announcements.

Since the Kayaksailor is unique among sailing rigs for kayaks and since we have spent more time using it than anyone out there, we thought it would be nice to have a place where folding craft owners could chat with us about the rig. Plus, it is a good place for Kayaksailor owners to learn from each other.

_________________
Paddle-sailing and loving life!

2 Pakboats XT 15s
Self built West Greenland style SOF
Self built Polar Greenland style SOF
Current Designs Squamish
Necky Eskia
Winderness Systems Tarpon 140
Ocean Kayak Prowler Trident 15


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:55 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 718
Location: South Salem, NY
Hi Dave and Patti,

I must say your rig is quite intriguing. I have a full Klepper S4 rig and my speeds are not much greater than the ones gbellware is getting with his kayaksailor. He also makes the sail seem a lot more forgiving than the Klepper rig - which could be quite nice when sailing a good distance from shore.

I was wondering if you were going to be attending any of the east coast kayak shows coming up? I'd love to see the rig in person. Or, are there any kayak shops that might have one in stock around the NYC/CT area?

If not, do you have any detailed photographs of the sail set up with the new Klepper mounting system? I'd love to get a better look at that.

Thanks,

Dennis

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Klepper Aerius II
Long Haul Ute
Klepper T9
Montauk 170


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:12 am 
lord high faltbotmeister

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 785
Location: manitouwadge ontario
This is a really well made rig and it doesn,t try to turn your Klepper into a sail boat, paddling is easy ,if you want to, but you have to be able to reach the end which will be closest to you, if you sail from the rear seat you might not, but all things are adaptable. When the weather warms up ( minus 30c this morning) i will see about moving it towards the stern of my Aerius 2 . It,s so simple to rig i don,t think you will be dissapointed. It,s on my Triak and it,s one of the best sail rigs available at very reasonable cost. The way i adapted it for the Triak can be seen in the photo section of "Kayaksailor".


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:27 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 437
Location: atlanta, georgia
http://s1090.photobucket.com/albums/i36 ... 03_517.mp4

Dennis,

Here is a clip that shows the rig on a Klepper Quattro. Hope it helps. I was sailing from the "middle" seat, but I have also sailed from the rear seat in my A2 (which doesn't have a middle seat) with the rig positioned about 2 feet aft. I just lashed the main tube of the Kayaksailor to the leeboard crossmember of my Klepper sail rig, and the Kayaksailer crosstube I lashed to the Klepper combing. Very simple and secure.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

2007 FC Big Kahuna
2010 Klepper Quattro
Kuvia sail rig
'69 AEII, S2 rig


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:52 pm
Posts: 22
Location: Columbia River Gorge, Oregon
Greetings Dennis,

My apologies for the delay in responding. David and I were attending the Southwest Kayak Symposium in San Diego, CA, which, by the way, is an excellent event for anyone interested in gaining knowledge from some of the best in sea kayaking. Our Pakboats attracted quite a bit of attention and we did our best to open the minds of people to the benefits of folding craft.

Traveling to the East Coast from Oregon is an expensive ordeal. We had a terrific time at the East Coast Canoe and Kayak Festival last year. At present, it looks as though we will not be traveling to the East Coast for the next several months.

No dealers in the NYC/CT area but we have two dealers with demo rigs in New Hampshire. Pakboats, http://www.pakboats.com/ and TopKayaker, http://www.sit-on-topkayaking.com/index.html.

Gerald of Klepper America, http://www.klepperamerica.com/ is the designer and manufacturer of the mount. I'm sure he'll be happy to send detailed information about it. Here is a link to a video we shot last autumn here in The Gorge: http://www.youtube.com/user/Kayaksailors#p/u/8/cuX8yCwbj8E

Cheers,

Patti and Dave

_________________
Paddle-sailing and loving life!

2 Pakboats XT 15s
Self built West Greenland style SOF
Self built Polar Greenland style SOF
Current Designs Squamish
Necky Eskia
Winderness Systems Tarpon 140
Ocean Kayak Prowler Trident 15


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 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:36 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:58 pm
Posts: 24
Location: New York and Lake Tahoe
Klepper makes a "tripoint adapter to use with the Kayaksailor. Does anyone know if it will work with the Longhaul or Foldbot?
Alex
no boat yet but soon....


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