Folding Kayaks Forum

The user forum for FoldingKayaks.org
It is currently Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:18 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:14 pm 
forum fan

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:55 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Boston, MA
Anyone have any experience fitting one of these to a Klepper rudder? Looks quite feasible with the do-it-yourself mounting adapter.

Interested in your feedback.

https://bixpy.com/bixpy-outboard-kit-for-kayaks/

Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:00 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:08 pm
Posts: 235
I have used a more traditional trolling motor on a tender, even on a 20' keel sloop for short distances.
The price for the kayak motor is more than I would pay, and I enjoy paddling.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:38 am 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 881
Location: atlanta, georgia
While I don't have experience with this set up I do have experience with the Torqeedo motor. From my experience it is really important to be able to operate the rudder and motor independently. The motor creates a significant amount of drag and I would not want to have to paddle any distance with it in the water and not being used to propel my boat. And I need a rudder while paddling or under sail. You might want to look at the Torqeedo ultralight, it is very high quality and it has 3 times the battery storage as the bixpy (at twice the price!).
Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
39' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:52 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1160
Location: isles of scilly UK
I have looked quite a lot into electric outboards. to name just five is, Bixpy, Skimmer, Scubajet, Watersnake T24. and Torqeedo. The prices in the UK can be from over £2000 to about £120. So have a good look at what is available and the mounting. Then there are the batteries, leisure batteries are usually recommended, not car batteries, but these are heavy, each one is usually about 30lb and climbing if you want more range. Lighter weight batteries are Lithium and very expensive, in my opinion, having lithium on my Trikes they have to treated with a little care (unless my Trike system is poor) as I think I depleted the Lithium batteries too much, we shouldn,t be able to do this, I have received helpful assistance on how to recharge my Lithiums but so far I havn,t been able to do it. And sending Lithiums back to the supplier which they told me to do is not possible as delivery companies won.t take them. Bixpy have now come out with a mounting on the rudder set up which looks quite good but I don,t know about on a Klepper as they appear to be made for hard shells.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:16 pm 
forum fan

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:55 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Boston, MA
Thanks for all comments. I am intrigued by Bixpy. It has a lot of mounting options, about half the cost of Torqueedo. They advertise 333 Wh from s 26w lithium battery, which is about the same as Torqueedo.

I see no reason why Bixpy could not be successfully mounted on a Klepper rudder. I am not convinced it would create substantial drag on a rudder, significant enough to interfere with rudder operation. The mounting bracket is relatively streamlined, and the motor housing itself is removed from the flow of water around the rudder foil. From reading other user reports, the main challenge is that rudder steering becomes tighter and requires somewhat more force to counter the torque of the motor at higher speeds.

However I am interested in both paddling and sailing, and I do question the impact on rudder performance when sailing. I have not yet read any reports specifically from people who do sailing, so that is a big question mark for me.

I suppose I could side mount the Bixpy using the Klepper motor mount bracke (actually I have an extra crossbar for leeboards laying about), but that creates its own problems with balance. I like the simplicity of design, and the center placement of the rudder mount option.

Welcome any feedback from other electric motor users!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:12 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 881
Location: atlanta, georgia
Looking forward to what you work out with the Bixpy! I think that mounting the motor on the rudder is optimal for all conditions when you are motoring. And you may be right and not have the drag of the motor be too much of a pain when it is idle and you are just paddling or sailing, but that is not my experience. I also found that side mounting the motor has other drawbacks...interference with paddling, imbalanced weight, and off-axis forces from the motor mounted too far from centerline will rob you of power efficiency. I fabricated a transom plate out of aluminum and I mount my motor so that it just clears the rudder when both are in the water. Also, the Torqeedo has a 915 kw battery.
Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
39' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:06 pm 
forum fan

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:55 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Boston, MA
I have seen the photos of your custom mounting plate--very impressive!

I am referring to the Torqueedo Ultralight 403 for comparison purposes. That model seems to have essentially the same specs as Bixpy, but less sticker shock.

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/produ ... 04-00.html

Im glad to hear my concerns about side mount are not unfounded. In my past I have also piloted airplanes, and it makes perfect sense to me that the side mount would create adverse yaw. But in theory it should be easy enough to correct an adverse yaw condition with slight opposite rudder input, so Im not sure how much i should really care about side mount versus rudder mount.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:24 pm 
lord high faltbotmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am
Posts: 881
Location: atlanta, georgia
Yep, 403...915kwh, it is the larger capacity battery.
https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/produ ... 06-00.html

And the drag from rudder correction for side mount yaw may be absolutely silly/negligible/unmeasurable...but I think about that crap. Can't help it!

Really looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Unfortunately there are only a couple of us who have gone the motor route on the message board, so we have a limited "n". We will just have to make do.

Best,
g

_________________
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats"

1988 A1 Expedition
2010 carbon Klepper Quattro
BSD sail rig, 24' mizzen + 36' main
39' jib
Torqeedo outboard
1938 Sachs-Fichtel seitenbordmotor


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:40 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1160
Location: isles of scilly UK
The Bixpy is one that I am very interested in and I suppose you have seen the universal rudder mount that came out recently. To me this looks ideal and I don,t think there would be any problems if using sails. One thing you can do is reverse the Klepper rudder as shown in Ralph Diza,s book Complete Folding Kayaker pages 194,195 in the second edition. This reversing also turns it into a balanced rudder. No doubt now the new Bixpy mount is out I might see if next spring I can afford one as I do like them. So I will check the UK prices.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:56 am 
forum fan

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:55 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Boston, MA
Yep, I have seen the Universal Rudder Mount, but I doubt it will work with a Klepper. It uses a 10mm pin, which I believe is way too large for the Klepper gudgeon.

The do-it-yourself adapter seems like the best approach--mounting the motor directly onto an existing Klepper rudder. I don't really see a downside, as its just a matter of drilling a few holes to accommodate the mounting screws. My rudder is aluminum, which would withstand any abuse.

I am not convinced that the Klepper rudder would suffer. True, the pin is less robust, but the Klepper pin has to pass through 3 or 4 thick aluminum brackets on the Klepper gudgeon (at least on mine), which should act to distribute forces among the entire gudgeon rather than creating a single point of weakness. I assume Klepper designed it that way for precisely that purpose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:18 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1160
Location: isles of scilly UK
The Klepper electric system uses the same rudder bracket on the rear of the kayak so all should be ok. We don,t have a Bixpy dealer here in the UK but there is one in Ireland they have told me it will cost about 1440 euros which might put it out of reach unless the pound goes up which is doubtful.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:38 pm 
forum fan

Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:55 pm
Posts: 12
Location: Boston, MA
The Klepper electric system uses the standard Klepper 1/4" pin. The Bixpy Universal Rudder Adapter uses a 10mm pin (equivalent to 3/8"). They are definitely NOT the same.

I contacted Bixpy to ask their opinion. They did not think the Universal Rudder Adapter would fit on a Klepper gudgeon because the Bixpy pin is too large. However, the Do It Yourself Adapter would be a fine solution. They recommended drilling holes at the bottom of the Klepper rudder to attach the mounting arm. There is no need to cut the rudder blade.

Bixpy also confirmed that drag is not a factor. Bixpy said "The motor is quite streamlined and in our testing it posses almost no noticeable drag when sailing or paddling."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:18 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1160
Location: isles of scilly UK
Now having looked at the Bixpy mounting the do it yourself looks like it,s the way to go. I am now looking at a cheapo, the watersnake T24, which is an over the side outboard. and I am trying to figure out how to attach it to the rudder and make the electrical connections water proof. Some thing for me to think about on these cold wet days. In 2017/2018 I and other members talked quite a lot about electric motors and probably came to the conclusion that over the side is not a good idea because of balance and it getting in the way for paddling. Then on June the 6th 2018 I fell and broke the bone that covers the hip joint, not really serious but at 81 not good. It stopped me paddling all 2018 and early 2019 then I worked all the summer in an artist studio so I am now looking at paddling and sailing next year.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group