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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:02 am 
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Dear folding kayak friends
I am a new member of your forum and want to say hello to everybody from Germany. Maybe you can help me with my new Klepper T67. I bought it in an absolutely new condition, it had never seen the water before and was a sleeping beauty for 54 years in a dry loft. It looks like as if had left the Klepper factory only a week ago, clean deep ultramarine blue canvas, smooth rubber skin, no scratches, fantastic. It is complete but the inflatable backrest cushion is missing. I have only a very poor drawing printed in the "Klepper-Buch". I want to make it from scratch but need the measures and maybe fotos. Is there anyone who is lucky owner of this accessory part and can help me?
Best regards
Sergej


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:33 am 
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Location: Carbondale, Colorado
Attachment:
image.jpg
. Hi Sergej: Congratulations on your "new" boat. I also have a T 67 that I obtained without a backrest pad. My solution was to make a sleeve for the wooden backrest out of nylon cloth and water proof closed cell foam from an old PFD as shown in the attached photo.

Steve


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Klepper Vagabund 1929
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:36 pm
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Location: Germany
Congratulations, I saw the boat on eBay. Very interesting but expensive. If you use the boat normally, then in a few years, the skin will become sticky and harden. The rubber is rapidly aging as water, summer heat and UV light. This effect I have repeatedly observed even at very well preserved rubber skins.
I think the backrest cushion is identical to that of T66. The rest cushion to my T66 I have given to waste, because defective.

R.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:44 am 
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I'm guessing that, since Sergej has a museum-piece, he's trying to keep it all-original.

Sergej: I think your best bet will be to keep your eye on Ebay-Germany. I think the part will pop up there sooner or later. Also see if you can connect with other German Klepper folks (the two big websites for older types are German) and hopefully there will be some sort os "swap" arrangement.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Location: Oakland, California
Sergej,

Congratulations on the "new" T67!
The old item number for the backrest was 3366 per "Das Klepper Buch".
I had one, entirely unusable due to hardening, for my T67. Rainer's T66 cushion looks correct per the illustrations in Das Klepper Buch.
Unfortunately, the rubber in the rubberized canvas used in the cushions deteriorates just like the old skins. About the only thing you can do is to store it in an airtight container.
The two major factors in the degradation of rubber are UV radiation and ozone, elevated temperatures speed up this process. In addition, a firm skin will soften and can become sticky when warmed in the sun.
There are a few things we can do with the old skins to slow this process down: First, keep away from UV light and ozone. I store the T67 skin in double plastic bags in a cool closet.
Second, keeping the hull waxed will help to preserve the rubber. Ideally, the old silver wax for the exterior and clear wax for the interior. After waxing, treat the interior with talcum powder. This makes frame insertion and removal easy and sops up any stickiness of the rubber.

Chris O.

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Klepper Aerius II
Nautiraid Miniraid
Klepper T67
Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
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HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:49 am 
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Dear Steve, Rainer and the two Chris'
Thank you so much for all that information! I did not expect to have so many replies on my topic after one day, that's great. The selfmade backrest looks really fine, nice design, Steve! And Rainer's cushion is, I think, exactly the 3366. Now I have to decide which type I will make. Rainer, I did not pay what was asked for, it would have been too expensive for me. The owner was happy to sell the boat to someone who is able to savor it and significantly reduced the price, adding the wild water paddles in new condition and driving me home. I have several cans of silver wax left over from my father's old Hammer Langeiner from 1952, but did not yet apply it to the T67 because of some controversy in the www about its effectiveness, an old and obviously never ending story (Klepper milk or wax or both or nothing or ...?). I remeber the late 70ties when I was able to transform my father's old Hammer, after 20 years resting folded in the cellar, from a "stone" back into a water tight softskin boat after polishing it for several days with ... silver wax. So wax can not be totally wrong. I guess the silver in the wax was the old days method for UV-protection. Today we have the Aerospace Protectant 303, some people used it without immediate destruction of the skin, maybe an option too. The talcum procedere is suggested even today by Klepper, but please be warned: Unless especially declared, talcum is contaminated wich asbestos fibers even today. I bought asbestos free talcum in a pharmacy, the price is only pence.
My two other T67s are: One with a black Klepper expedition skin from 1999 and one rebuild by myself on the basis of an incomplete frame with a selfmade cockpit and skin (PVC/blue canvas, see jpg).
Best regards
Sergej


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:15 pm 
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Location: Oakland, California
Sergej,
Nice work on the T67 skin! How did you replicate the Klepper stencil?
Re. 303 protectant: My personal experience is that it is fine on newer rubber, such as the latex gaskets on my dry suit. It is NOT OK on older rubber which has begun to get sticky, it makes the stickiness worse. Happened to the deck bead (which goes into the groove of the coaming) on my T67. Talcum (baby powder) solved that problem. Maybe 303 is fine again on really old rubber which has hardened.
Re talcum contamination: At least in the US, cosmetics grade talcum should be free from asbestos where industrial grade might indeed be contaminated. I still would not breathe the dust and do wash hands after use.
It is almost a sad universal truth that many (most?) effective chemicals are hazardous.

For my back rest cushion, I found a standard gardening kneeling pad cut to correct length to work well. I like to have the pad extend the full length of the back rest, so no hard parts can dig into my spine.

Chris O.

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Klepper Aerius II
Nautiraid Miniraid
Klepper T67
Pionier 450 S
Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
HSF Horst Hartung Slalom 50
P&H Hammer


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:34 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 443
So I have acquired a Klepper T6 with a solid and inflexible (but otherwise good condition) skin. Is it possible that wax can fix that? And if so where can I acquire some? (I live in the UK, so would be happy to purchase from mainland Europe; shipping shouldn't be prohibitive.)
Sorry to intrude on the thread about the cushion, but I was assuming I would have to replace the skin. I should certainly be happy to experiment with wax if it might save me that cost or delay it. Like your father's Hammer, the skin was probably not used for 10 or 20 years, but it seems to have been well cared for prior to that.
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
Ian


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:14 am 
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Dear Chris O.
The stencil was painted with blue and white EDDING pencils and a pattern derived from a bad photograph: I had nothing to compare and now it is overseized. Thank you for warning me about unwanted side effects of 303.
Please find my first attempt of making a backrest pad with closed cell foam, PVC and EtaProof, a water resistant canvas as an jpg. The backrest wood is made of a so called screen printing plate, ugly (brown coating) but waterproof.
Dear Ian: The onls source of silver wax is e..y, the last company (Sport Zimmerman) ceased the produktion last year, the oddments are sold out. Very dissapointing, I know.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Sergej
Thanks for the information. I'll have a look. And what a beautiful seat you have produced!
Ian


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:08 am 
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Dear Ian
My old silver wax cans are all broached and most of the solvent has evaporated over the years, I have to ask a chemist with a good nose to identify it and add some milliliters to refresh it. If I would have a big stock of wax I would give you one can. I have another pic with the rear side of my pad. Please don't look at the stiches. I wanted to make it with the foam still inside and a seam without interruption, not easy because you have to compress the foam all the time. Now the seam looks like the drunken man's walk (it's my first item). The next will be better.
Good luck with the wax
Sergej


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:14 am 
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Dear Ian
Maybe I found a source of old silver wax for you: There is a company in eastern Germany specialized on Pouch kayaks offering boats and used accessories. I was happy to order the original Klepper 3366 back rest cushion on friday and asked for a source of silver wax. As I was told, they sometimes receive old cans together with the old kayaks they offer in their shop in parts or after maintanance. Maybe they will send you a can to the UK:
www.patcool.de
Goooooood luck!

Sergej


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:20 am 
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Dear Ian
I just ordered a can in addition to my inflatable pad and will receive it in the next days. As patcool told me the can is only partially filled and the wax maybe stiff. As soon as it arrives I will give you information whether it is worth for you to order and pay the extremely high shipping to UK.
Best regards
Sergej


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:07 pm 
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Dear Sergej,
Thank you very much for the tip. I have come across that firm but didn't know they sometimes have wax. Let me know what you think when you get your tin. I am very tempted to have a go at reviving this old skin, and in any case I have a skin on my T9 that is over fifty years old and in good condition, presumably because the former owner religiously applied this stuff every year.
Thanks again.
Ian


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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:43 am 
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Dear Ian
My father was a wax squanderer and applied the expensive lotion every month. When after years in the cellar the Hammer was reactivated it's stiff skin was full of pustules and fissures but the again application had the effect of an anti aging wonder cream on the face of an old Hollywood diva. Tomorrow I'll have a new test object: In addition to my home made PVC skin I will receive an old T67 skin which is still foldable but very used. First I will apply the rest of my fathers very old wax from the fifties and see what happens. I guess the patcool tin will be of newer production and better.
I will save it for my mint skin. By the way: There is a nice T9 on e..y germany at the moment, but the guy will not send it, you have to pick it up at his home.
Dear Rainer: If my inflatable Klepper back rest pad and the seat cushion arrives I will add a photograph.
Best regards
Sergej


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