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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 6:50 am 
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Dear Ian
It was not until yesterday that the parcel with the still very soft and air tight inflatable klepper seat cushions (type 3368) and the old wax arrived. The wax was produced in the GDR and the "tin" is a bakelite box with a funny warning: "Contains 70% organic solvents, nor or only marginally harmful to health". Whatever that and the other remark (infinite storability) means, most the solvent still has evaporated and the wax is really stiff, but still can be applied to the skin. The effect is similar to that of my own old wax. I can not say anything about long term effects. I have no idea about how many cans they have and whether they sell them separate or only in combination with an old skin (I ordered an old cheap T67 skin last week). If there is o other source you should risk it and pay patcool and the shipping company.

Dear RainerM
The Klepper pad in the parcel was not the model 3366, now I make my own copy on the basis of a very cheap inflatable rubberized blue canvas cushion from the local shop (6 €) using your photograph. The length is still appropriate, but the width is a little bit too large. With scissors and a tube of rubber solvent I will tune it to its new shape.

Dear ChrisO
Applying the colorless wax and talcum made the inner surface of the newly acquired very used skin tough and dry, the frame does not stick. But the boat is still inhouse and I have no idea what will happen under the direct sunlight.

Merry Pentecoast
Sergej


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:53 am 
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Dear Sergej,
Thanks for your helpful suggestions re wax. I got no reply from patcool and have been away a bit in the past two months, so sorry not to have replied. But I noticed a helpful remark of Poul's just now on re-waterproofing seasocks here. Is there any reason you can see why I shouldn't try a bar of this 'greenland wax', 'Made from high-quality paraffin and beeswax', just to see if it might have a beneficial effect on my Klepper T6's stiff skin? Apparently it is sold to re-waterproof waxed cotton jackets, and now I know what to look for I've found various other possible products. This one looks like the most wax for one's outlay:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gold-Label-Wate ... BGY2Y54YZV

The latter is about a quarter of the price of the bar of Fjallraven wax, but the former lists paraffin as part of the mix, and it occurs to me that the solvent might be helpful/crucial to penetrating into a stiff skin. That said, price is relevant, especially when trying to do something as large as a Klepper. I wonder if one could just buy some paraffin or turpentine and dilute the 'Gold Label' to get the same effect. Any thoughts?

All the best,
Ian

http://www.fjallraven.com/greenland-wax


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:42 pm 
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Dear Ian

After 3 weeks of holydays I'm back again, I have to apologize for the delay.
All my attempts to gain any information about the solvents used in the wax of the old days did not succeed. My joker is my old boss, as a chemist his nose is calibrated and I hope he will be able to identify the solvent by just smelling it. I use wax for my homemade canvas backpacks and my oil skin jacket from Australia. There are two different formulations available: One for the lazy bone and one for the fancier. The first is solved in organic solvents and is sprayed on the surface, the latter one must be melted and applied wich a cotton. After application the canvas has to be heated which a hair blower to help the wax to disseminate and penetrate.
The spray is sold in tiny bottles, too expensive for a whole T6, and the latter does not seem to contain any solvent.
I do not remember where but some guy suggested to use floor polish.
If one has no spare part of an old rubber skin to test it is a little bit dangerous because of the irreversibility of possible damages. And even if you can test, how to know anything about a possible slow degradation induced by the treatment?
I'm sorry but I have no experience with the wax you suggested and therefore can not honestly promote the application.
As I told I have a very used old skin for my T67 which I use temporarily to keep the homemade skin safe as long as my son is not so experienced in avoiding ground contact. I could apply some of my cotton wax to it and see what happens, if this might help you.
In the meantime I could buy a cheap Klepper photo bag from 1962 which is unused and very soft and air tight. It has nearly the same size as the Klepper backrest cushion and I can use it for that purpose. My home made solution transforming a Chinese inflatable cushion into the new shape has not been finished until today.

Kind regards
Sergej


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:04 pm 
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Thanks, Sergej, for your thoughts on the matter. I have bought the cheaper wax now (in a larger tub) and am thinking I'll probably give it a go next week when my wife is away and I'll have the house to myself. (The conservatory gets quite warm at this time of year so I'm thinking that should be good for softening the wax and helping it penetrate.) I'm not overly hopeful, but figure I've only lost £5 if it doesn't work, while I've gained a skin if it does. The skin is stiff as a board, but otherwise not too cracked or damaged, though I suspect the corners where it is folded may crack a little when I unfold it. Perhaps those are the best places to start applying the wax and seeing what happens. My thinking is that the worst is that I'll have to throw away the rubber hull, which can't presently be used anyway. The cotton deck can be reused and I'm willing to try sewing a homemade pvc hull to it if I wreck the rubber one.

I've an old Tyne Prefect skin I may try it on too, if I've any spare; though that seems to be delaminating, so again I'm a bit doubtful ...
Still, well worth a try, and it is great to hear that it has worked on your old skin in the past!

All the best,
Ian


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
Just in case the wax does not work... before you throw the hull out you might want to disassemble it and make some patterns for future reference. I just finished painting our kitchen and picked up a huge roll of paper at the paint shop, about a meter wide and fairly heavy in weight to mask the floor etc. It just occurred to me that this paper would be great for tracing patterns on.

I threw out an AEII hull a couple years ago which I disassembled first, keeping the rubber end caps, some of the better rubber for patches(?) and the rudder mount of course. Wish I had thought to make a pattern at that time. The top deck was shot as well but not terrible. I kept it, separated the bow and stern pieces and currently use them inside my T9, bow and stern, to keep that frame from sticking to the rubber. Works Ok.

d

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:22 am 
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Dear Ian and d...

Sewing your own skin is really a drudgery. I made one for my first T67 frame and decided against another one for my T65 frame. Only if you are very patient and willing to handle 5 yd and 20 lbs of PVC and fabrik trying to place the seams exactly where they should be and otherwise unstitch and seal the tiny remaining holes in the PVC with a soldering iron you should start.
At the Klepper factory, a needlewoman needed one year of training before she could finish a hull.
But if you make your own hull, use only the best PVC, minor quality (truck tarpaulin etc.) is not worth the efford.
I had no pattern and started with fiting two halfs of the PVC to my frame with the famous corset method described in the different DIY forums. I joined them before fitting the canvas. I had to unstich three sectors of the assembly seams before all buckles could be fixed.
Unfortunately I wanted to be very clever and decided to use a rotproof PE cord edge instead of canvas, but this made the assembly seam untight (canvas would have expanded in moisture) and I had to apply an expensive sealing goo. Whether the pride of having made your own design is worth all that torment? I am not convinced.

Sergej


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:23 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:57 pm
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Location: Carbondale, Colorado
My experience with hull-making has been different. I bought a used Consew walking foot industrial sewing machine a couple of years ago and made a couple of hulls for boats that had no commercial hulls available and no templates. I made the decks using the "corset method". After some trial and error, I then started the bottom using good quality 18 oz. PVC, sewing about 1/4 of the width to each gunwale. I then used the corset method to glue the remaining central parts of the bottom together. That way, I got a good fit and less wrinkles, although not perfect. Yes, there was some trial and error. The worst part for me was working with the H 66 glue. I did this outdoors wearing a paint spray respirator. I admit that part was not pleasant.

Steve

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:09 pm 
knight of the folding kayak realm

Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:42 pm
Posts: 442
Thank you both, Sergej and Steve. Is the 'corset method' basically what Tom Yost describes, i.e. the stitching together and tightening of the hull over the deck through lacing? I guess it must be. I re-hulled a Tyne Prefect (small British single seat folder) using that method last summer and have been fairly pleased with the results (though also well aware of all the little imperfections that no-one else notices). It hasn't put me off the idea of repeating the experiment. I did it with glue alone for the pvc, and my mother helped me sew a canvas section for the cockpit to strips of pvc that could then be glued to the hull. I feel sure I should be able to do it better next time, but then ambition can cause its own difficulties. With the HH66 I found a respirator and working outside meant that it was much less unpleasant than the time some years ago I glued new hypalon rubbing strips over the cracks in my old T9 rubber hull. (Done inside and without a respirator--not something I'd recommend to anyone else.)

But I do need to find the time (and space) to do it. And next time I'd like to be more ambitious and incorporate the old canvas deck wholsale, probably by sewing strips of silver pvc around the edges to allow it to be glued again to a laced hull. How best to insure one gets the right amount of rocker? Dennis, I'll certainly try and measure up the old hulls as a template.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:18 am 
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Dear Steve

Serendipitously you continued building hulls and, with the right equipment, succeeded repeatedly. I occupied the entrance of our appartment for nearly a week putting a PFAFF to the torture which has previously been owend by a nice lady and used to sew wedding dresses.
Ian, your hybrid method of gluing sawn strips is really smart, thank you! What stressed my tendon sheaths most was the turning of the hull from left to right and back and forth ... for several times until everything was fine. This can be avoided by just gluing the assembly seam.

Best regards
Sergej


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:06 am 
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Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 4:14 am
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silverfish wrote:
Dear Ian
I just ordered a can in addition to my inflatable pad and will receive it in the next days. As patcool told me the can is only partially filled and the wax maybe stiff. As soon as it arrives I will give you information whether it is worth for you to order and pay the extremely high shipping to UK.
Best regards
Sergej



Hi,

Silverwax is basically 60 % gasoline, 30 % wax and parrafine, 10 % aluminium particles. If the wax hardened due to evaporation of the solvent you can add gasoline and mix it until it gets soft again.

If you want to make your own you can get finely ground aluminium particles in small quantities from Schmincke like https://www.airbrush-city.de/schmincke- ... /a-160238/

I got the list of ingredients from the former German manufactorer Immalin.

HTH

Greets
Ralf C.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Location: Oakland, California
Ralf,

I think something got lost in translation from German into English..
You do NOT want to add gasoline to dried wax, this is explosive. You DO want to use Naphtha, also known as white gas or benzene ( in German it might be called Waschbenzin). Gasoline is what we put into a car...
The pigment used in the old silver waxes was silver cadmium oxide (Silber Cadmium, ein Schwermetall). It is considered toxic..
I would be VERY careful with aluminum powder, it can ignite, even explosively, see: http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/Al_powder.htm
It certainly COULD have been used in a silver wax, but this would not have had the brilliance of cadmium oxide.

For a good discussion on silver wax and the issues around its use and reasons for discontinuance see this thread from faltboot.org: http://www.faltboot.org/forum/read.php? ... msg-219719
Yes, it is in German, but you can a run it through Google Translate.

Just don't want anyone to get hurt cooking up their own wax. Shudder...

Chris O.

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Last edited by ChrisO on Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:11 pm 
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ChrisO wrote:
Ralf,

I think something got lost in translation from German into English..
You do NOT want to add gasoline to dried wax, this is explosive. You DO want to use Naptha, also known as white gas or benzene ( in German it might be called Waschbenzin). Gasoline is what we put into a car...
The pigment used in the old silver waxes was silver cadmium oxide (Silber Cadmium, ein Schwermetall). It is considered toxic..
I would be VERY careful with aluminum powder, it can ignite, even explosively, see: http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/Al_powder.htm
It certainly COULD have been used in a silver wax, but this would not have had the brilliance of cadmium oxide.

For a good discussion on silver wax and the issues around its use and reasons for discontinuance see this thread from faltboot.org: http://www.faltboot.org/forum/read.php? ... msg-219719
Yes, it is in German, but you can a run it through Google Translate.

Just don't want anyone to get hurt cooking up their own wax. Shudder...

Chris O.


From my own contribution to the faltboot.org-thread you mentioned the detailed list of ingredients as it was mailed to me by Immalin:
SH 104 Wachs 96,000 g
Mikrowachs 48.000 g
A-Wachs 6,700 g
Paraffin 115,300 g
Testbenzin 625,000 g
Alupaste 91,000 g

I have talked to whoever didn't run fast enough in government organisations and non government organisations in Germany including Silberwachs-manufactorers in Germany and have not come up with a single indicator of cadmium other than faltboot.org. I think this subject has taken on a life of it's own long time ago and I will stick to what the only guy who actually delt with the stuff kindly mailed to me.

Regards
Ralf C.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:08 pm 
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Location: Oakland, California
Ralf,

Yes, I see your point about the cadmium/aluminum issue in the silver wax. Would be interesting to have some samples tested. On a personal level too, since I have used the old silver wax on my T67 and Kette... I sincerely hope that you are right!
One could try to add aluminum paste (=Alupaste) to a clear wax! Just not aluminum powder.
And "Testbenzin" is indeed White Spirits, Stoddard Solvent etc, but not gasoline (or petrol in GB). In the US White Spirits is commonly called, and sold as, Paint Thinner. Naphtha products are commonly sold as White Gas, lighter fluid (Ronsonol), Coleman Fuel and VM&P Naphtha. Functional distinction? Naphtha evaporates faster than paint thinner.

Chris O.

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Kette SE 54
Mariner Coaster
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:51 am 
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ChrisO wrote:
One could try to add aluminum paste (=Alupaste) to a clear wax! Just not aluminum powder.


I tried to break this down to stuff that's commonly available. You just don't get aluminum paste in small quantities. It's sold by the barrel to industrial paintmakers. I also talked to a couple of pigment producers. It seems that aluminum paste is just aluminum pigments in another solvent - either water, benzene or oil - depending on the desired end product. Makes handling easier and avoids dust in the mixing process.

But as you can't get that as a private person Schmincke pigments seem to be the closest equivalent.

Greets
Ralf C.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:40 am 
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Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Hello,

There is an aluminium paste sold in small quantities at automotive stores. I really don't know what is in it, but it is used as an 'antiseize' paste when you bolt aluminium engine (or other pieces) together. There is also a copper antiseize paste, for iron or steel pieces, but this can cause problems with aluminium because of electrolysis. I used to use it when I had a motorboat with an inboard engine and stern drive. The external unit was aluminium and I used the tube of aluminium paste to keep the bolts from getting stuck. The tubes sold in Sweden hold maybe 200 or 250 g of paste, and don't cost very much.

I also used it on the tubes of my Svir kayak when I was putting it together to 'lubricate' the joints. I really don't know what's in it aside from aluminium and probably some grease.

Whether you can make the silverwax with this is anyone's guess. It did tend to make a mess on the inside of the Svir. Maybe I should try some on my old (rubber) Klepper hull to see if the grease makes the rubber completely fall apart....

Jonathan

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