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 Post subject: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:46 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
I took the AEII out this evening to do some fishing. I could have taken the T9 which weighs half as much but I wanted the larger platform and I didn't want to get wet. I put my deck into the boat with a piece of foam pad on it for kneeling, and instead of installing the kayak seat I put a Klepper sailing seat across the coaming at the number 4 rib. I launched the boat from the floating dock, got in from the dock, sat on the sailing seat and paddled with a canoe paddle. I did not get wet at all... as civilized as canoeing...

I did kneel for a fair bit of the trip to rig, cast and paddle, and it was very comfortable. But it wasn't hard to maintain balance on the sailing seat to fish and paddle either, but it is a little high.

I've been thinking a lot about canoe sailing lately and I've become very intrigued by the idea of making canoe style seats for the Aerius II. I think that in calm waters or for fishing it's nice to be situated a little higher and use a canoe paddle. The boat is certainly stable enough. The question is how to mount the seats?

Resting the seat on top of the gunnel is the obvious first choice but when the sponsons are inflated this is a tight fit and the wood from the seat would push against the hull fabric where it meets the gunnel and sponson. It's tight there and I don't think that's a good location. Mounting below the top rung of the gunnel would push the wood into the sponson... not as terrible I think. Would an upside down J-bolt sort of scenario be an acceptable way to hang a canoe seat in the boat and would the gunnel support this?

Originally I was going to use this kitchen rack to sit on, but the sailing seat was less obtrusive for paddling - it also had straps on it. I started over the number four rib and quickly realized that number five position would be better. I was able to make that change on the water.
Image

I think the best position would be hanging from the top rung of the gunnel, higher than the picture shows. Looking at the pictures I realized that the gunnel hinge is back by rib #6. I think staying closer to rib #5 is a better idea...

Image

The elevated seat idea originated for sailing; to be able to lean more without having to be on top of the gunnel. I think there are a lot of other great uses for a seat in this position.

Does anyone think this would be too much weight for the gunnel to support?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:46 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1709
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
This has probably already occurred to you, but I think you'd want to stay near the ribs. I like the idea a lot-- my hip joints and lumbar have issues, so my three hour paddle this past Friday definitely left me thinking "canoe!". With a wider floor, one could always kneel to lower weight... and lo and behold: you appear to have done that! Can you tell us about the secondary floor in your photos? (Apologies if you have discussed it in earlier links-- if so perhaps refer us to that link.)

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:38 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Hey Chris, somewhere in the sailing column there's a post on making this board. I originally made it so I could scramble around the boat a little better for sailing and not be bashing my knees and shins on the ribs and edges of the deck. I love it. I usually put a sleeping pad from REI on top of it to make it a little less slippy and even more comfortable.

The original post probably has some more detail about construction, but here are some pictures.

Inspiration to do this hit me like a train one day so I simply used the remnant of a piece of ply already on hand. I believe it is 6~8mm marine ply Mahogony. I mentioned this because the length of the board in my boat is a little odd ending between the two back ribs of the cockpit. It's important to keep in mind that when you do this the conventional seating can no longer be mounted in it's usual way. But a Long Haul Comfort seat can be snugged down pretty well with straps which is what I do.

I put my frame together and started making measurements. The most difficult is the double tapering width. What I did was measure the outside distances of each rib in the cockpit at the top of the ribs cross section in the bottom of the boat, i.e. the height at which the board will rest. Rough cut the board so it's oversize but fits easily on top of the coaming. With the board on top of the coaming line up the ribs with your plywood sheet and start marking the board with your measurements. Make a centerline on the board to make sure the distances are even on both sides. Once the lines where marked I drew the approximate curves/lines from mark to mark and cut the board. The next step was making the slots for the ribs and this was pretty easy. Once the board was cut to the approximate size I wedged it down into the boat arranging it where I wanted it to fit and then simply marked where the ribs lined up with the board. Obviously before you cut the slots the board is riding up in the middle of the cockpit. As you cut the slots the board drops down into place and you can be pretty accurate with the fit if you take your time. I left the first compartment open so there is a lip and the front of my board to sit on the rib.

Something I hadn't thought of was the flex in an 8mm board. Support was needed underneath and I had some pink foam insulation in my shed which turned out to be very close to the height of the ribs in the boat. I think cutting the foam took longer than cutting the board. The edges where the first stringers are need to be tapered and everywhere theres a clip or joint a hole or slot needs to be dug out. I may have overdone it with the insulation. Although it's a perfect fit it's overkill and using 2-4" strips of the insulation between the ribs would probably work fine and be much easier to transport. One advantage the full insulation has is that there is very little friction between the board and the ribs and there's no space for large amounts of water to collect under the board.

Try the board out, if you like it put a couple coats of varnish on it and you're done. I usually hold mine down with a strap if I'm sailing just in case of a capsize. Continuing the board to the next rib would probably be a better idea... but, my board wasn't that long.

Image

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Image

Image

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d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:49 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
The only downside to the board for me is transport. If the boat is folded, the board isn't so tough to carry on the top of the car but the foam pieces are a real pain and take up a lot of space. I'm constantly thinking of a new way to make this deck but haven't come up with a good plan yet. My favorite to date is to make a strip deck that could be rolled up when not in use. Spacers would be needed to keep strips separated though and that makes rolling a problem. Being pinched between boards is to be avoided at all costs.

Here's a visual thought from the other day...

Image

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:43 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1709
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
Thanks very much! It also gives me ideas for being able to sleep in the boat...

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 9:47 pm
Posts: 74
I've been experimenting a lot lately with seat mods on various canoes and kayaks, especially on my Tyne and Klepper tandems, rigged solo, and my Swift osprey, a dedicated solo canoe. Like you, I find the versatility of these boats is one of their attractions. I paddle the above craft with short, bent-shaft single blade canoe paddles, as well as with a 240 cm. carbon shaft double blade. I switch paddle styles often during extended paddling trips, and even on day trips. Here's what works for me: I use a simple, inexpensive, Chinese-made kayak seat that is often sold as an after-market SOT seat. This seat replaces the Tyne and Klepper factory seats, which is, in itself, an act of mercy. The seat resembles a stadium seat but with more cushioning and made of more robust polyester. The seat is easy to install in any boat with ribs, seat hangers, or gunnels with drain holes. I install mine slightly aft of boat centre. This seat is then modified with a 3/4 length "lite" Thermarest mattress which I fold 3-4 times for placement under the kayak seat bottom. With simple compression straps I attach the cushion so that it doesn't slip around. When double-blading I open the valve and squeeze out a little air in the mattress to allow for a comfy position 3-4 inches off the floor. When I decide to single-blade, I inflate the mouthpiece which I've made sure is conveniently positioned on the forward side of the folded thermarest. A blow or two of air inflates the "pillow" to a height compatible with single-blading, 5-7" off the floor. I can then paddle my "kayak" with my bum and lower back comfortably supported, and my knees at something close to a 90 degree angle, perfect for sit-and-switch canoe-style paddling. I deploy the rudder when single-blading as that allows me to conserve energy by eliminating corrective strokes. I find that my paddling speed single blading vs. double blading is very similar. Single blading is especially efficient when fishing. Trolling a line is easier as double blades get in the way of the fishing rod in its holder. My apologies for not posting any photos. Unfortunately, posting photos on this site and on the CCR canoe site has proved to be beyond my present limited techno-capabilities. :) Martin


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:54 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Quote:
It also gives me ideas for being able to sleep in the boat...


one of my goals for sure. Check the first picture out on this page:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. ... ling-canoe

This entire thread is very cool. Howard Rice rounded Cape Horn sailing a Klepper Aerius 1

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb419/pocketyot/scan0060.jpg

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb419/pocketyot/CapeHornRig_zpsb050c24d.jpg



Martin, the trick to posting a picture here is to have it first posted online somewhere else, i.e. a photo hosting site like Smugmug or Flicker. Then you get a link from the photo site and paste that link in the thread here using the IMG box in the Reply toolbar. I'd love to see a picture of that seat setup you have.

I have an older Thermarest... I might try this aerolift idea with my Long Haul comfort seat.

I began to play with a 'hanging' idea today for a traditional type seat, but was 'tasked' away by my wife...

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:38 am
Posts: 86
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
DLee wrote:
The only downside to the board for me is transport. If the boat is folded, the board isn't so tough to carry on the top of the car but the foam pieces are a real pain and take up a lot of space. I'm constantly thinking of a new way to make this deck but haven't come up with a good plan yet.


As my girlfriend pointed out once when we were stuffing the Klepper into the hatchback, having a deck that didn't fold kinda negated the whole point of having a folding boat in the first place. It was hard to argue with that logic.

Anyhow, we strapped the deck firmly to the roofrack, with just the tiniest edge in front of the foremost rack (hoping to avoid any "barn door in the wind" effects) and gingerly made our way home.

I thought about sawing the deck in half and bolting it together with brass hinges but one of the great things about the sailing deck is that it is a full, solid deck.

On the upside, I added a foot rudder system from a Folbot Cooper - a most elegant solution to the standard and deficient, imho, standard Klepper system. This makes the deck eminently more useful - I sit on a Feathercraft inflatable seat and still have my hands free for sail control.

Still cold here and not doing much paddling at the moment. But the jasmine is blooming which says that Spring is most definitely on the way.

Happy sailing to you all.

Paul

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Feathercraft Airline Java
Nortik Trekraft, awaiting the river's embrace
1960s Klepper Aerius II, now gone be the star in a Special Forces movie
Folbot Greenland II, now at a new home on the Southern Cape coast


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 Post subject: Re: Klepper vesatility
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:20 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1379
Location: South Salem, NY
Hey Paul, I like your 'barn door' comment. I've been there... fortunately I was able to load all the boat bags on top of the deck, on top of the car... but it took me a while to find a comfortable position for that 'wing' up there.

I've been playing with my MK1 as you may have seen and in place of the sailing deck I put a Type IV PFD down on the deck and then laid a trimmed down foam sleeping pad over it. The Type IV is higher than the rib and the sleeping pad does a nice job of smoothing it all out. I don't think this is necessarily the answer for the AEII, but there may be a possibility in there if the right cushions to fit the space were found. Something to think about for travel. But in the end I have to say that I do love that solid deck. I have another nicer foam pad that I lay over it these days. Super comfy but solid.

What are you putting under your deck for support between the ribs?

I don't know how adventurous you are, but I've been playing with these 'Hike-out' seats from Long Haul with my MK1. LOVE them. Pretty excited about putting them in the AEII and doing some serious sailing. ha. My comfort level of being a bit higher in the boat has gone way up since I started playing with these and the increase of control - in terms of countering the sail... isn't just increased, or doubled, it's more like being squared or cubed. With the full 36 sq. ft. BSD sail up and a solid gust, I still have just barely been able to fully sit on the side of the boat. I'm always still half inside. The time or two that I did fully sit on the 'hike out' seat put an ear to ear grin on my face.

Here's a picture where you can see the seats and the foam pad covering the Type IV. In this picture I had a Type IV on both sides of the rib. A good idea on paper... but I couldn't get my feet under the outrigger board/traveller... so the forward one had to go. The sleeping pad does extend all the way up to the rudder peddles although I seldom use them. One last thing, it's also a decent seat and super comfortable to kneel on.

Image

Would love to see a pic of your 'board and Cooper rudder system.'

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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