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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:31 pm 
paddler

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:51 pm
Posts: 7
Location: California
I just got a Klepper t67 kayak for the price of a case of beer (so far so good). When I went to pick it up, it was assembled, but the skin, which was in bad shape, was stuck to the frame. The decking material was rotten and ripped as we removed the two halves. The bottom shows scrapes, and the owner had removed tape and it leaks a bit in those spots, so it's not great. The frame appears to be in good shape. The thing is, I would like to test the boat before I decide to replace the skin with a new version (from Long Haul? Wayland? Other?). If I don't like the way the boat handles, I don't want to pay what is essentially the cost of a new conventional kayak just for the skin.

What I'd like to do is some short term jerry-rigged fix so I can take it out on a quiet lake, stick close to shore, and see how it handles. Are there inexpensive options, like painting the bottom with waterproof paint? For a trial run, do I really care if the decking is ripped (pretend it's a canoe for now?). Because I have the old hull to use as a pattern and a sewing machine, perhaps I could sew something new that wouldn't be too expensive and would last long enough for me to become familiar with the boat?
Any suggestions for a fairly inexpensive fix for the short run?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:26 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Try wrapping the entire frame in saran wrap (or similar) to test it. I've never tried it, but I've heard this works-- I believe I saw it on Dave Gentry's website.

Longer term solutions are far more involved and expensive. You can try making your own with PVC (find a copy of Tom Yost's instructions), or work with Long Haul to have a new hull made. If you are in Europe, there's a hull-maker in Germany, but don't recall his name right now.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:48 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Markus Heise can help you with a new skin. Top shelf quality... (or you can take your chances with Wayland).

http://www.heise-faltboote.de/index.html

Markus does speak English too.

Nice Klepper you have there, hope you get the skin situation sorted out so you can enjoy it.

Cheers,

Barry

PS: Don't know what you consider to be cheap, but a new skin for an old, obscure, kayak will never be inexpensive. If you are handy you could try making your own skin for the T67. Several people on these pages do that (check the homebuilder section), or search the web for Tom Yost. BEM

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Blackhawk Combi Canoe 15' 8"
CLC Chesapeake 16'
Klepper Aerius 2
Klepper T9 / Heise Skin
Pionier 520-Z / Heise Skin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:32 pm 
paddler

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:51 pm
Posts: 7
Location: California
Thanks for the advice (to both of you)! As a short term solution, I contacted Long Haul, and although they don't make hulls for the t67, Matthew graciously agreed to see if he could patch the skin for me. At least that way I will be able to test the boat and see if I like it well enough to do a proper (and expensive) restoration. The boat has a beautiful frame, and I really look forward to taking it out on the water.

Part of the reason the original skin is in such bad shape is that the two halves of the frame were badly stuck in the skin. After two of us tugging on it for a good while, we finally ended up having to cut part of the upper deck to release the frame. Is there a way to get around this problem in the future (short of leaving the boat assembled, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting a folding boat...)

Ann

P.S. I notice that you list your previous boats (at least the folding ones). In the past I have had:

Former: Folbot, roomy, don't know what model -- blue-green vinyl covering (like car upholstery from the 1960s)
Former: Folbot Aleut -- small, serviceable, but a bit slow. I did check it on the plane from Boston to Oregon for a trip down the Columbia River, which was fun.
Current: Oru "Bay" kayak: Very light weight and quick to assemble. I use in calm water conditions only.
Klepper t67: My current project, and the subject of these posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:21 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Unless I misunderstood, what you described was a ripping of the canvas in the rubber-coated-canvas hull. That might indicate that the canvas, itself, no longer has integrity-- which would mean that it can not be patched.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:23 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Marcus Heise does a top-notch job for a top-notch price, or so it would appear. I'm very glad that he is out there, but couldn't personally afford him.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:00 am 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:38 am
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Location: NW Ohio
achap wrote:
Part of the reason the original skin is in such bad shape is that the two halves of the frame were badly stuck in the skin. After two of us tugging on it for a good while, we finally ended up having to cut part of the upper deck to release the frame. Is there a way to get around this problem in the future (short of leaving the boat assembled, which kind of defeats the purpose of getting a folding boat.)


Ann, the traditional, and IMHO, best way to keep that from happening is to apply talcum powder to the hypalon or PVC (whatever is used for the hull of the skin) and spread it around before you install the frame. You don't need much, but it makes the lower, "rubber" part of a skin very slick. Also you only have to apply it about once a year. Klepper used to sell this "Bootspuder", maybe still do, but it is just baby powder. Makes the boat smell nice too! ;)

Some people on this forum, and elsewhere, have expressed a concern that the talcum powder can leave "spots" on the cotton deck. Frankly, I've never seen that happen in over 20 years of using talcum powder and I think they might be applying it after the kayak is assembled, IDK. These people stick their beautiful frames in a plastic garbage bag and install that in the skin. I'm sure that works, but you lose one of the benefits from having a cotton deck, the kayak doesn't breathe and so the inside stays wet, dank, and if you don't take it apart almost every time after use, I'd be concerned about mildew on the cotton and rot of the wooden frame. Especially exacerbated with a folder that has such a small coaming like the T67.

If you haven't found it, here is a bit of info, in German, about your kayak, amongst other Klepper solos including the T9 that I have. Looks like it was a river kayak that could be used for white-water racing.

http://www.faltbootbasteln.de/fbb-klepp ... lepper_t67

I can help with the translation if you don't speak German.

Btw, Marcus Heise is very good, I'm on the cusp of ordering a new skin for my T9 from him to replace the one I got several years back from Wayland.

_________________
Blackhawk Combi Canoe 15' 8"
CLC Chesapeake 16'
Klepper Aerius 2
Klepper T9 / Heise Skin
Pionier 520-Z / Heise Skin
Pouch E65


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:15 pm 
paddler

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:51 pm
Posts: 7
Location: California
Thanks for the tip on using talcum powder. I had considered the garbage bag approach (thought I "invented" it), but talcum sounds better, for the reasons you describe. I checked the Marcus Heise site -- several pictures, which look good, but I didn't see descriptions of the materials he uses (especially for the hull -- many of them are white -- not hypalon?), nor did I see prices. Klepper USA (Bellingham) had a 2013 pricelist for a new "skin" for the t67, listed at around $1300. I haven't heard anyone mention Klepper USA as a good or bad option for new skins--most people seem to go overseas. Is there a problem with the USA Klepper workmanship?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:40 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
The talk is that Klepper is exercising it's own quality control on products produced by Wayland. This has not been verified. If you can get a good hull for that boat for $1300, including from Klepper, I would say that you should jump on the opportunity.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:59 pm 
faltbootemeister
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:38 am
Posts: 192
Location: NW Ohio
So Klepper USA is selling new skins for their old kayaks? That's a big change. They used to say they couldn't do that after they lost all the patterns in a fire, I think it was back in the '90s. My guess is that those are made by Wayland, hopefully the quality has improved. The Wayland skin I got for my T9 is serviceable, has some design flaws, some just rookie mistakes, such as a single stitch, with no backing, to attach the rings. Pull too hard and that stitch will come right through the deck. The rest I documented in another thread on this site years ago.

If Klepper Rosenheim is actually making those skins, then that's a great price, never had any problems with traditional Klepper parts.

Heise uses black TPU standard, hypalon, the grey material, is extra. Haven't decided if I'll go with hypalon for the new T9 skin. Just email Markus with what you're looking for wrt to color and any extras (e.g. lifeline, paddle holders) and he'll get back with you in several days with a price and estimated delivery date. His prices are very competitive with the quote you got for the one from Klepper USA. info@heise-faltboote.de

Cheers,

Barry

_________________
Blackhawk Combi Canoe 15' 8"
CLC Chesapeake 16'
Klepper Aerius 2
Klepper T9 / Heise Skin
Pionier 520-Z / Heise Skin
Pouch E65


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:55 pm 
paddler

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:51 pm
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Location: California
Thanks! I'll check out both Heise and Klepper USA and see what I come up with. You mentioned that you may not go with hypalon for your current boat -- what are the alternatives? It seems very heavy and unwieldy when you are trying to fold and pack it (I think that's what I had on the Aleut). If there is something reasonably durable and not so heavy, I'd be interested.

You have a Klepper t9--how do you like it? I think that is probably what I demo-d a few decades ago. Stable, roomy, fairly large cockpit, tracked well. It was fun to paddle, and was the reason I jumped at a chance for this Klepper, which has different design (lovely frame, though). I haven't tried the t67 yet, but I'm a bit nervous about the small cockpit. Tracking won't be a huge issue since I'm usually going relatively short distances, but it's annoying to have a boat that turns into the wind...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:35 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Hypalon IS heavy. PVC is the alternative. Far lighter. Lots of debate as to whether the toughness of the two is comparable or not. PVC is far easier to repair.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: '84 Hobie 16; early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:57 pm
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Location: Carbondale, Colorado
Hi Ann:

I read thru this thread and wonder if you have jerry-rigged the hull in order to try the T 67 to see if you like paddling it? Keep in mind that it was designed primarily for paddling fast in whitewater. As a result it is more unstable than most sea kayaks, and more difficult to handle in wind and with following seas. I would hate to see you spend lots of money on a new hull to find out that you don't like paddling it.

Steve

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:10 pm 
faltbootemeister
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achap wrote:
Thanks! I'll check out both Heise and Klepper USA and see what I come up with. You mentioned that you may not go with hypalon for your current boat -- what are the alternatives? It seems very heavy and unwieldy when you are trying to fold and pack it (I think that's what I had on the Aleut). If there is something reasonably durable and not so heavy, I'd be interested.

You have a Klepper t9--how do you like it? I think that is probably what I demo-d a few decades ago. Stable, roomy, fairly large cockpit, tracked well. It was fun to paddle, and was the reason I jumped at a chance for this Klepper, which has different design (lovely frame, though). I haven't tried the t67 yet, but I'm a bit nervous about the small cockpit. Tracking won't be a huge issue since I'm usually going relatively short distances, but it's annoying to have a boat that turns into the wind...


Apparently TPU is standard these days, but I don't have any experience with the material. I'm waiting on a response from Heise as to what he things are the pros and cons between hypalon and TPU. Personally, I think PVC and hypalon are about the same weight, but PVC is stiffer. From what I've read it seems that people like the performance of TPU and it apparently is a lot lighter. For my purposes it'll probably be fine, just comes down to the appearance, I'm tending toward a grey hull vs black this time and I think TPU is only available in black.

WRT, the T9 - well it is hands down the best kayak I've ever had the pleasure to paddle. I assembled it again yesterday and am very excited at the prospect of paddling it today for the first time in about a year. (I go through phases - paddle the T9 for a year or two, then paddle the E-65 for a year or two - I'm pretty fortunate to have access to these two classic "Einer".) It's a great looking folder from most angles and tracks great, but will turn "on a dime" if you lean a bit. From what I read about the T67 it is for river/white water kayaking, but according the to the description from Klepper (in the link I sent you earlier), it is still fine for casual kayaking. Steve seems to feel differently and as he owns one I'm sure he'd know.

Of course sometime these challenging boats end up being the most rewarding to paddle too. For years I had the pleasure to own a Blackhawk Starship solo tripping canoe that I bought used. I was actually looking at a hard shell sea kayak at the time and this other guy was testing the Starship. He got halfway into the river (slow moving stream) and dumped it. I had to try that canoe, there must have bene a good reason the designer gave it such low initial stability. It was awesome, tracked great and turned on dime with a little lean - had a low initial stability, but actually pretty decent secondary stability. Wish I still had the canoe but sold it because it wasn't a good boat for taking the kids canoeing - really miss that canoe. Point being, the T67 might have a bit of a learning curve, but you might end up loving it. From the pictures I've seen of the T67, the frame looks like a work of art!

Barry

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Blackhawk Combi Canoe 15' 8"
CLC Chesapeake 16'
Klepper Aerius 2
Klepper T9 / Heise Skin
Pionier 520-Z / Heise Skin
Pouch E65


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:50 pm 
paddler

Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:51 pm
Posts: 7
Location: California
Thanks to both of you (Steve and Barry) for comments on handling the t67. Steve--you have quite a collection of classic Kleppers -- which is your favorite? I think I might keep my eyes out for a t9 as well. I really love the wood frames, and I know there's a boat out there (probably a Klepper) that will be a good match, and worth the extra trouble/expense to restore.

I am sending the old, worn hull off today to Long Haul, so I'll see what they estimate on repairs once they've seen it. If not too expensive, I will get my "Frankenstein" patched hull back (as Matthew from Long Haul termed it). I may also check out posts from another kayaking website (paddling.net?) with mention of a t67 in good shape owned by some one in the San Francisco area. I may see if he'd be willing to let me try out his boat, which already has a good hull.

I don't know if pictures of the t67 frame made it onto this website -- I tried to post it but seemed to be missing some key piece of information needed before it would upload. I may try again. I have a photo from the former owner, who hadn't used it in a while and actually installed the cockpit backwards--still, a lovely frame. Fun, and, at least for now, worth the extra work to restore a fine older boat rather than just buying new (I also like old houses more than new -- more "soul", and the dings tend to contribute to the character).

Ann


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