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 Post subject: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:35 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
My wife & I took our MK2 up to Munising, MI in the UP Tuesday through Sunday. We paid for a trip along Pictured Rocks, however, we took the advise of the hotel staff and went to a restaurant named The Dogpatch. While in line to take a seat, my wife said "Is it bad we can't smell the food"? Well it was bad and we spent the next few days in intestinal distress. I cancelled the trip on the 4th for Saturday the 6th and we still were unsure. I ended up asking for a refund but we did go out by ourselves 2 times. The rational was if the worst happened we were by ourselves and closer to the hotel.

The first time out was for 4 hours with almost no wind. We paddled for over 10 miles along the south side of Grand Island. The kayak was great for the time out except I forgot to take my wallet out of my back pocket and my butt hurt after 3 hours but we were having too much fun to come in. Saturday we went out in great wind 10-15 MPH and 2 ft waves. We had the Kayaksailor up but my wife was uneasy and we took it down. About an hour into the trip a Coast Guard ship pulled up alongside us and asked "Have you ever been boarded before"? I said "no" so they asked us to get closer and hole on to the rail. They asked a bunch questions about who we were and where we lived etc... They checked our gear. They were impressed with the Mark 2 and our equipment. They really liked the fact we had PFD's, whistles, 2 paddle floats, 2 bilge pumps, 2 floats, flashlight, first aid kit, repair kit and a VHF radio. In fact after giving me an inspection form they said they wished every kayak-er was as prepared. How cool was it to have the Coast Guard snuggle up to your kayak in 2 foot waves. They were so impressed they didn't seem to give to much concern about the wind and waves while out in the middle of Munising Bay. It had to be about 1 mile from land on either side of us.

I talked my nervous wife into reefing the sail and trying again while the Coast Guard was boarding another boat in the area. She reefed the sail from her seat and we left the halyard down so the sail was quite a bit smaller than it's regular 1.6 m. She loved the rest of the afternoon. I learned something in the process, in stronger wind leave the mast in the lower position for a while until she gets used to the healing and then raise the sail all the way up.

I am thinking about buying a 32 sqft BSD sail with outriggers to use in conjunction with the KS similar to Heavyweather did. I have not decided yet and it may not be until winter for next year but I think the outriggers would give my wife the security she needs and add to the fun. Mark said I could send in the stern Keel and the rear coaming and he would alter them for the BSD. What a guy! Which size sail would you recommend?

I was very impressed with the way the MK2 handled in the choppy water. It seems to plow right through the waves as if not even there. The tracking was excellent even though the waves were hitting us at our beam much of the time. With the sail up I did notice the bow was being pushed downwind unless I used the rudder. We pushed the leeboards forward and that seemed to help a little. Several times we were hit by 3 footers from big boats including the Coast Guard ship and we had no trouble at all.

All in all it was 2 great days of paddling and sailing on beautiful Lake Superior. Kudos to the Mark & the Long Haul MK2 and the KS with Genoa sail. I am so glad we bought them both.

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Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:35 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
Well, after being nearly poisoned you had a great trip and gained experience, thats the way to go. You will find outriggers give a much more feeling of safety, i have used them for years and wouldn,t be without them. Right now i have a fairly large set from Russia. On the MK2 and Klepper Aerius 2 i think the Kayaksailor lee board are a little on the short side as they can,t be very deep in the water so i have made a longer one and eventually will give a report in the sailing section. Nice to hear of another folder on Lake Superior.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:30 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Lake Superior is a great place and I can't wait to go back. I heard that if you took all the water in the lake you could fill the entire area of North and South America to 1 foot deep. Put another way, you could fill the main land of the US to 5 feet deep.

It is so clean and clear and inviting. We want to go to another great area in Marquette, MI next time. We drove over there but didn't put the kayak in.

John what kind of outriggers do you use?

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Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:31 pm 
faltbootemeister
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 221
FrankP wrote:
Lake Superior is a great place and I can't wait to go back. I heard that if you took all the water in the lake you could fill the entire area of North and South America to 1 foot deep. Put another way, you could fill the main land of the US to 5 feet deep.

It is so clean and clear and inviting. We want to go to another great area in Marquette, MI next time. We drove over there but didn't put the kayak in.

John what kind of outriggers do you use?



I am following your paddling/sailing trips closely. You must be happy with your new boat...:) The Long Haul boat is great!

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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail

http://vimeo.com/channels/travelotherapy


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:13 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
Frank. I have no experience of BSD (when i considered them the service was so poor i didn,t try to buy a set, Now i belive the service is GOOD), having said that i think their outfit might be the best option with the large outriggers they now supply, but walk before you run, i wouldn,t use the BSD with the KS untill you are in complete control. The outriggers i use are by "Spring Creek" sometimes two on each side, on my Folbot Yukon i use Folbot Outriggers, ugly but they work. Next year if all goes to plan i will be leaving Canada and going to the "Isles of Scilly" which are 28 miles southwest of Lands End out in the Atlantic so for there i have bought larger Russian outriggers by Taimen which maybe available from "Out Reach" in Germany. The "Spring Creek" outriggers are not very big and made from a type of styrofoam so they are ridgid, for these i would suggest a 45 inch centre piece called a UR(universal receiver). But if the wind is strong enough you can capsize even with outriggers.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:02 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
John thanks for the outrigger pictures and I know what you mean about walking before trying to run. My wife is kind of a coward, which leads me to look for the outriggers for the added security for her. I may look into BSD outriggers and then buy the 32 BSD sail next year. I can tell her all day long in the wind we have here today won't capsize the MK2 but what do I know. Last weekend on Lake Superior we had great wind so we left the halyard down so it was only about half the sail but we got going pretty fast anyway.

Yes I do like the MK2. I find it a pleasure to assemble and dissemble and I'm getting a little faster. I have watched your exploits in your Commando with great envy. Today I was wishing for the crystal clear water of Lake Superior. I hope to get back up there and paddle/sail around Prestique Isle near Marquette, MI. Fabulous! We went out on a 2.25 mile long inland lake about 25 min NW of us and it was less than clear but not bad. You just couldn't see more than 1 foot down. All I could get was 3.6 MPH with the KS fully raised up while on a close haul into the wind. I did figure out that the bow was being pushed downwind because the leeboards are just too short. I think I want to carve a wooden leeboard and replace the KS leeboards. If anybody has plans I would be happy to use yours. I love to give credit for something that works well.

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Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:49 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 180
Location: Arizona, USA
According to Gordon -

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down

Of the big Lake they call Gitche Gumee

Superior, they said, never gives up her dead

When the gales of November come early.

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Kenton


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:37 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
Frank, i think you might have got me mixed up with DoiNoman who is doing some remarkable sailing trips. Now lee boards, David of now Kayaksailor fame did a considerable amount of design and experimentation with the lee boards made for his KS outfit. And i have corresponded with him and he thinks they maybe a little short for the Longhaul Mk2 and the Klepper aerius. The main fuction of lee boards, in my opinion, is to stop the boat being blown sideways down wind, that is why if they are too far back from the sail, i suppose that is called centre of effort, the boat will "pivot" around them but they also assist in sailing. I have found that to have them pointing forward seems to help in going into wind, if i am correct the length of the lee board as supplied with KS is at a disadvantage. You can make your own out of ply, i would suggest laminated to at least 1 inch thick, if thinner it can sort of vibrate or you could call it "quiver, side to side at high speed". I have made two lee boards, one for use with my Pacific Action sail or Klepper sail and the other for the KS outfit. I have not yet done enough with the one for the KS outfit, but going deeper in the water it should be an improvement. Here are two photos to give you some ideas, the end view shows the lee board where it needs a little more sanding on the trailing edge. I belive thinning the trailing edge is very important. There are foil sections shown, if i remember correct on the"duckworks web site". The holes in the top and bottom of my lee boards is so i can angle them forward or back. Your speed going into wind was in fact quite good, i have found that often lowering the sail, if you can, and just paddling into wind gets you there sooner, if you can,t proceed by paddling into wind it might be too strong anyway, if you can paddle and sail at the same time that can help but in my opinion half a paddle, or canoe paddle is best so you avoid hitting the sail.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:18 am 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
John I did paddle most of the time from the rear seat and the times we were on a close haul at 3.6 MPH were only a few but most other times it was 2.8 MPH with the sail only. The problem is the wind is not steady so our speed would drop to 1.7 often if I didn't paddle. When paddling I could keep the speed up to 3.4 into the wind. It did take a lot longer to tack back to the boat ramp but we enjoy the tacking. I still have to paddle through the tacks because our speed drops when we are in "Irons" since we didn't have enough speed going into the tack. Thanks for the pictures. I don't have the equipment to laminate a leeboard so I will look into having a blank made or I wonder if BSD would sell me the leeboard and the outrigger now and next year buy the sail.

I at one time knew DoiNomad's first name by way of Mark from Long Haul. I enjoy his posts on Facebook too. I didn't get you mixed up I just didn't want to reply to Doi because I think that is his wife's name but I'm not sure.

Good sailing!

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Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:05 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
Frank, Yes of course you can paddle with the two blade paddle as your sail is i think further forward than my set up as i have to be able to reach the "goal posts", i sail alone. BSD will i think supply their outriggers and leeboard on their own, a look on their web site should confirm it, i would get there bigger pontoons, they cost more but i for one would pay it for the extra safety they will provide. It,s like a PFD or any other piece of safety equipment you only need it once to show that it wasn,t a waste of money. I think that sailing up wind can be somewhat frustrating unless you can sail fairly long "legs", hopefully our more experienced sailing members will come in and advise us. Then it should go to the sailing section.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:27 pm 
faltbootemeister

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:48 pm
Posts: 248
Location: Wisconsin, USA
One of the reasons we like lakes is you can sail those longer legs of a close haul. I think the frustrating thing is after you tack, the wind pushes you back a little, then you see the lost angle of attack and you have to rudder it back on course. I will call David at BSD and ask him about the options. You are right about the front paddler not being able to paddle very well. My wife takes hers apart and stows them under the webbing.

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Frank
Long Haul Stretch Mark 2
BSD 36 HP Sport & BSD 24 HP Sport
Advanced Elements Convertible
2015 Windrider 17 white w/white & black sails


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:16 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1387
Location: South Salem, NY
Hi Frank, I think the BSD outriggers would put your wife well at ease but for the Kayaksailor they are way overkill. I priced out the outriggers once with David on the phone and it was just too expensive to get them piecemeal. It's a much better deal to buy the entire rig at once... but maybe you can work something out with David. He's a good guy, but he is a salesman...pretty good one too. Hide your credit card before you call, Ha.

If you do get the complete BSD rig I'm pretty sure you could use the BSD lee board without mounting the outriggers. This would be a great solution for the Kayaksailor. DoiNomazi could clarify this, but I believe you can rig the outriggers while out on the water if you have them available in the cockpit. This way you could head out sans outriggers and then deploy them when the wind picks up or the day gets long and you don't feel like leaning anymore.

If you don't go for for the full on BSD rig, a simple and nice outrigger solution might be the Hobie Sidekick Outrigger. It's real easy to set up on the water, takes up little space in the cockpit and I believe it would be the perfect complement to your wife's full sail apprehension when in stronger winds... you can even adjust the height of the pontoons while out on the water. With shipping I think you can have them for around $200.

The BSD is a high performance rig, I think it could be a lot of fun and the twin BSD would just be smoking hot.

Image

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:36 pm 
faltbootemeister
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:41 am
Posts: 221
DLee wrote:
Hi Frank, I think the BSD outriggers would put your wife well at ease but for the Kayaksailor they are way overkill. I priced out the outriggers once with David on the phone and it was just too expensive to get them piecemeal. It's a much better deal to buy the entire rig at once... but maybe you can work something out with David. He's a good guy, but he is a salesman...pretty good one too. Hide your credit card before you call, Ha.

If you do get the complete BSD rig I'm pretty sure you could use the BSD lee board without mounting the outriggers. This would be a great solution for the Kayaksailor. DoiNomazi could clarify this, but I believe you can rig the outriggers while out on the water if you have them available in the cockpit. This way you could head out sans outriggers and then deploy them when the wind picks up or the day gets long and you don't feel like leaning anymore.

If you don't go for for the full on BSD rig, a simple and nice outrigger solution might be the Hobie Sidekick Outrigger. It's real easy to set up on the water, takes up little space in the cockpit and I believe it would be the perfect complement to your wife's full sail apprehension when in stronger winds... you can even adjust the height of the pontoons while out on the water. With shipping I think you can have them for around $200.

The BSD is a high performance rig, I think it could be a lot of fun and the twin BSD would just be smoking hot.

you can see the march set-up here http://www.dennisleephotography.com/pho ... 7780-M.jpg or check the videos..:)

d


I speak only for us, in case other people can do it. We can't deploy the outriggers while on the water, unless one of us jumps in and the water is no deeper than 5.5 feet..:) Usually, if we know that it will be mostly paddling on any given day, we install the mast and the cross section with the leeboard deployed and we pack the deflated outriggers on the deck.
Image

Sometimes we leave shore with the amas deployed and we dismantle them during a quick stop if we need to advance through narrow channels. Remember, we adopt the expedition style, going from camp A to camp B, when the priority is not to sail/paddle in the same spot for fun but to really go where we need to go for the night..:)

You can see a better image here:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 7964_o.jpg
or you can check the videos.

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Seasick & Grumpy enjoying a Long Haul Mark II Commando with BSD 36' HP Sport sail

http://vimeo.com/channels/travelotherapy


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:36 am 
forum fanatic

Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:04 am
Posts: 63
What a great thread.

I have the same problem re the Kayaksailor lee boards on the double Folbot. Wish they had a longer version for big doubles.

FrankP, if you do decide to go for the BSD you might consider the 36 sail. The MKII is a lot of boat (a lot of awesome boat!), a little more sail area will be welcome, especially in light airs. The zipper reef system works really well, so reefing sail will not be a chore. I don't think you will feel like you're pushing the envelope until winds hit 20-25+mph with a 36 fully reefed. That is what I have been running. When it starts gusting beyond 25-30mph I find that the ama starts to submerge and the *pucker factor* goes up. Pretty sure your first mate will not approve of those conditions, so there you go.

The beauty of the Kayaksailor is the speed and ease of switching modes. I would only buy the BSD if you really really love sailing. I wouldn't buy it for the stability alone, besides your wife should be happy knowing that you carry the Coast Guard seal of approval. I don't think many boaters get that. If you do like to sail, running the two rigs together is a lot of fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake Superior
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:19 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1060
Location: isles of scilly UK
The problem with the lee boards for the KS being longer, for the Longhaul and Klepper is, that there isn,t sufficient demand to justify the expensive cost in producing them. We think there is, but in reality there isn,t enough customers. So make your own, it isn,t difficult. We should end this disscusion and go over to the sailing section. When i get the results from my longer lee board on my KS that is where i will put it. I do know a longer lee board used with Pacific Action works good. (Pacific Action don,t supply any)


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