Folding Kayaks Forum

Roberto, I spoke with Mark at Long Haul today about a couple things BSD related and I reminded him of you. We were talking about sails and combo sail rigs. He said he thought you were the guy that he had put in a custom mizzen mount for on rib #6. I seem to recall talking mizzens with you once before but couldn't find the thread. Did you ever try that mount out? Mark also mentioned that slightly low air pressure can be a big factor in the amas losing their shape in serious conditions. Do you think this might have been a factor in your experience recently?

We also spoke a bit about the akas and amas and the complicated way the BOSS system mounts on the boat. I didn't realize it would be tricky to move the rig from one boat to another. That's kind of a drag as I would like to use the rig on both my AII and a single... if I ever move up from the T9.

If anyone can post some pictures detailing how the BOSS system mounts to the coaming of the boat and the pin joining system for the akas, I would really love to see it.

Thanks,

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Dennis,
If you go to the Balogh Sail Designs website and study all the info, it shows clearly how the BOSS outrigger mounts to the coamings. See: http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/clampCanoeMount.html. Besides the clamp, they actually drill holes through the coamings and insert bolts through the coaming and clamp. However, I do not believe that the drilling of the coaming is at all necessary if you use a better clamp, like the ones that I made when I made my own akas for mounting the BOSS amas to my outrigger. You can see those coaming clamps on the FB page that I posted for you and others earlier. I have not had any issues with these clamps. See also photos of BSD/BOSS outriggers mounted on folding kayaks and plastic boats on my attached FB page album (set up just for you): https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 50c2fe9b20 . If you do not drill the coamings, then moving the BOSS outrigger from one boat to another is very simple. The only thing you might need is an extra pair of vertically-oriented cross holes through the center section of the outrigger tube, in order to accommodate the different boat widths where you want to mount the outrigger. I drilled only two holes on each side of my center section, in order to mount the outrigger at either the forward position or the mid-ship position on my boat. So far, I have only been using my BOSS outrigger in the forward position, but I might try it in the mid-ship position if I decide to try my set of leeboards in the forward postion. That's one nice thing about using the Klepper leeboards rather than the BSD leeboard, which is mounted on the cross tube of the BOSS outrigger. The leeboard and the outrigger have to be at the same forward/aft position. I hope this helps.

Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat

Chris both those links are great! Thanks. More to come.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Chris I think you may have mentioned it before, but I cannot find it: do you know the outside diameter of the BOSS aka tubes?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Dennis,
The BSD-BOSS aka tubes are 1-3/8" diameter I believe. They are only 1/16" wall thickness. I got this info from their website or by scaling it from photographs. I made my akas from 3 each 48" long, 1-1/2" outside diameter 6061 grade aluminum tubes, of 1/8" wall thickness. I used 1-1/4" OD tubing for the connector tubes, and had to turn these down slightly to get a "close fit" to the 1-1/2" main aka tubes. I did not have a proper metal lathe, so I "duct taped"("Red-Green" is a good teacher!) the tubes to the spindle of a brake lathe, and used a file, sand paper, and emery cloth to achieve a very good close, sliding fit. I bought the aluminum tubes from Speedy Metals in New Berlin, Wisconsin. Total cost of the assembly with the amas was about $400 (of course, not including my research and design time, and labor.....but it was a fun project...and successful). Good luck!

Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat

Thanks Chris, that's what I was finding as well. The thing I am not finding is a nice clamp to hold a 1-3/8" aluminum tube. I find 1" and 1.5"... maybe I even saw some 1.25" but I can't remember. I'm positive though that I haven't seen 1-3/8". Think I could us a 1.25" and clamp it down a little?

I'd really like to put the cross tube on a board that has four adjustable slots on it using J bolts to hold it down. It would be wider than I'd like, but the flexibility for mounting would be great. If I end up with one of these rigs I want to be able to move it from boat to boat. I'd like a MK1 and I'm thinking of possibly getting a Ute for my son. I'd hate to have to buy three cross bars for three boats... and what about the poor T9?

Chris, for mounting the ama to the aka I saw a very ingenious idea in the Water Tribe forum. The ama had a strap around it, but instead of bolting it on, it was held to the aka with a set of bungees. The bungees had some type of connection to the aka and the rig looked pretty durable and solid. I thought that was pretty cool. This particular ama was also ten feet long and connected to the boat with two akas, one forward, one stern. I wish I knew where that link might be but it's long gone down the history chain by now.

You've got some good shots in that gallery of the BOSS rig mount, but it's on a plastic boat. I would really love to see how this connects to the boats with coamings. Maybe I'll check out Folbot.

http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/81921157?fromRR=Y

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

Dennis,
The 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" clamps you reference in the MSC website could probably both be made to work, and God knows they are cheap enough at less than $8.00 each. But if I were you, I'd just simply make them myself with the 1-3/8" diameter profile. All this mounting stuff, and even the aka tubes are all very simple to make. You just need to stop analyzing it and make it. I think you can make a 4' long center tube mounting section yourself that could contain all the holes for J bolts for mounting on all the boats you have without compromising the structural integrity of the tube. If you let me know all of the widths of the boats at the coaming where you want to have the J-bolts go through the tube, I could give you my suggestions for the drilling pattern on the cross tube. Then you would not need a board with clamps for the tube, and in turn, J-bolts which clamp board to the coamings.

Regarding seeing how the BSD BOSS mounts to Klepper coamings, the link I gave you above (again: http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/clampCanoeMount.html ) describes it perfectly. The section sketches are excellent and are easy to understand, better than having a photo. Please, look at them closely, spend a little time, and you should be able to understand the mounting very easily.

Regarding the Water Tribe info with two long inflatable amas, wherein the amas were attached to the aka tubes using elastic bungee cords, I expect you are probably referring to the attached: http://watertribe.com/Store/TRCProducts/Basic14Ama.aspx.

Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat

Dennis. Sorry for my late reply. I'm preparing for a bicycle tour of western Queensland for a month or two starting in a few days so will be offline for most or all that time. I will look forward to catch up reading the forum on return to Brisbane. Thanks for the S1 sail tip. I don't know about the klepper gooseneck fit. BOSS akas: centre 48" long with female each end, each outer aka 48" long with male inboard ends 6" each of that 48". Yes the O.D. is 1"3/8. Amas are centred 1" in from outer end and about 13" wide there, so extreme assembled width is 12' overall. The centre ama is triple thickness as is the male/female overlap join when it is assembled. I don't think it continues triple thickness much along the outer amas, judging by the weight. Probably single only. Triple thickness is obtained by close fitting tubing inside tubing. And yes it's me with the custom mizzen mount. I had sailing but no kayak experience when I bought my LHFK Mark II so at first paddled it a lot, then progressed to just the mainsail centre mount with BOSS, then without BOSS, then Schooner rig with BOSS, then trying higher winds, then multiday cruises, and just recently with mainsail centre mounted and a jib from a sailing dinghy. I can set and furl the jib quickly and easily from rear cockpit seat. Almost all solo sailing from the rear of cockpit, spraydeck installed. Even dabbled with trying sitting out in benign conditions but haven't got serious about that yet. And I still haven't tried the mizzen rig. That may be more suitable for sitting out. I can imagine there may be problems with the forward mounted mainsail and a mizzen mounted behind me but so it is with everything. I look forward to future testing and modifications with the ketch/yawl rig as with all the others. I'm watching the developments at LHFK and on this forum with great interest Ama pressure: I thought I had enough ama air pressure before the recent experience but I also have my doubts now. I'm rather computer illiterate and don't usually take photo's of anything so I apologies for no pictures. Another thing to learn. Thanks everyone for your great contributions to the forum. It otherwise gets lonely out here in Australia. Roberto

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2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

Rob,
You spoke earlier in this string about problems with your BOSS amas becoming buried and/or flipping over in rough conditions. I have a set of BOSS amas mounted on my own custom made akas and saddle mounts. I made the akas and saddles last year, and they worked really well. But on Saturday at the Small Saiboat Rendezvous on Lake Mendota, I did not check the straps closely where they mount to the saddles, and with my new 32 square foot genoa, and a good wind, I found the bow being driven a little deeper than with the small working jib. This caused the BOSS amas to "dive" and flip a little until it slowed the boat and/or I let out on the genoa and main sheets. Although I attributed it mainly to the larger genoa, I also realized that I did not have the straps pulled into the saddle slots in the saddle as far as they should. With my mount, I used heavy duty fibreglass reinforced mud flaps that are sold for on-road trucks, and created a little larger saddle than BSD makes, but used the same 3 slot configuration for attaching the strap to the saddle. However, because I bolted the saddle to the aka mount with 4 carriage bolts that would contact the material of the ama if I added no protection, I took my old diving wet suit and cut 1/4" thick neoprene gaskets to fit between the saddle and the ama (see photo below). The neoprene gaskets I made, and was using last Saturday, were only about 75% of the length of the saddles, and so did not go between the ama and the saddle where the straps attach the ama to the saddle. After experiencing this "diving" / flipping problem and realizing the strap connection was too loose (not the air pressure in the the amas), I decided that I need to draw the straps tighter AND make the neoprene gasket longer so that it goes all the way under the tie down straps and makes for a tighter connection. I am not sure how tight your strap connections are on your factory-made BOSS equipment, but you might also want to try adding a gasket between the saddle and the ama. I find that the neoprene helps lock in the strap and of course makes for a tighter fit. I believe this will help me avoid a recurrence of this problem, and you may want to try it also. I believe you can buy neoprene in various thickness. My 1/4" thick wet suit (circa 1968) is exceptionally thick compared to what I see in most wet suits sold today. I hope this might help you.
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat

Thanks Chris. I wonder if we aren't too ambitious about getting up more sail and pushing the limits of the whole system, but I can't help it. Roberto

_________________
2013 Longhaul Mark II Quattro with BSD schooner rig and outriggers. Packraft
Incept K40S

Roberto,
Yes, I wonder also. My first desire is to be able to sail safely, with my wife as first mate, in sometimes gusty and rough water conditions, should they come up during sailing passages. That's why I went to the BOSS outrigger, and it seems to have been a very good choice. Beyond that I had hoped to use the standard S4 sail rig in medium to heavier winds with the BOSS outrigger. In light winds, I wanted a bigger jib in order to get a little more speed. Everything is working out well.....except when I ran the 32 sq ft genoa on the weekend, I could not quite keep up with the BSD Sport 36 rigged boats (a canoe and a Kreuger kayak) when fairly close-hauled to the wind.....which might be expected due to the profile of the sail. I expect I could do better than them on a broad reach or running downwind, but we did not have the opportunity to sail that way on Saturday. One of our most experienced sailors observed me for a while and concluded that I would do better with the genoa if I had the cam cleat further outboard to reduce the inward curvature of the sail aftward, so on Monday I moved the jib cam cleats to the ends of the aka extension bars on the Spring Creek akas and will try that next. See photos. This experience is reconfirming my earlier thoughts that the fully battened BSD batwing sails are much better shaped than the Klepper S4 rig sails (especially my older stretched ones) for sailing close to the wind. I may purchase one soon. Smooth sailin' to all!
Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat

I have been wondering for a long time whether long and skinny might be a better shape than that of the BOSS floats.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.

Chris W. - Chris O. can hopefully chime in on this, but I think moving the jib cleat out further is a good idea providing you don't go out too far. I'm guessing the wind and sheeting is more important to sail shape than the position of your cleat. In light winds having the cleat out further will definitely give you more of that boomed out genoa affect.

As far as speed goes... it is quite possible that the BSD sails are more efficient, but, I don't think you can compare a canoe or Kreuger to the MKII. They are simply faster hulled boats. Unfortunately.

I've noticed and been trying to keep an eye on the participants in the Everglades Challenge and similar races. As seaworthy as our boats are, they are never participants in these races (please prove me wrong here) and I have to imagine it's because of hull speed.

Two years ago I had one of Mark's canoes at the Wooden Canoe Heritage Assoc. gathering up in the Adirondacks. A friend and I were out for a paddle in it. We stopped to change paddling positions when another canoe came upon us. The two paddlers in the other boat stopped paddling so we could exchange some pleasantries and the speed at which they passed us, gliding, was jaw dropping for me.

Our boats have a lot of great qualities. Much to my chagrin, I don't think speed is one of them.

Here's a really interesting thread about Howard Rice, he rounded Cape Horn sailing an Aerius 1, and his sailing canoe Sylph. Howard joins in and contributes a lot to this thread and it's a pretty interesting read. I'd love to catch up with Rice at a Wooden Boat event and pick his brain a little about sailing the folders. I'm hoping to go to the Wooden Boat show in RI later this month... it would be great to see him there. Roberto, you'll like this rig.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?130739-Sylph-Prof-Howard-Rice-s-sailing-canoe

I'm hoping the boss here will give me the OK for a BSD rig myself. If not, it's back to the drawing board with rigging my own BOSS outfit... which is not a terrible thing. I really like the red sail that is in the above thread. It's a bit of a cross between the BSD sail and our Klepper S4s. I like the depth of the sail much better than the tall narrow BSDs, and look at those two huge reefing points... nice! Really, this is more of a typical batwing that you see on a lot of sailing canoes. I think, this is the sail design we should be looking to get with out folders.

Chris T. - It does seem like the sleek narrow tube would be more efficient than the BOSS. But it's a lot more rig with two akas. I was originally looking at a thread about inflating a BOSS ama while out on the water. Unfortunately I cannot find it now. It was somewhere on the Water Tribe site I'm pretty sure, and there was some discussion on how this could be done. The long and short of it was that it's very difficult and help from another boat was the best option.
The idea of the long amas with dual chambers entered the discussion at some point. Trying to find that thread I found this, click on the inflatable outrigger link:

http://www.jpwinc.com/pages/photo-outriggers.html

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP

I have not had an opportunity to sail with the cam cleats out further on the Spring Creek amas since I'm back in Shanghai for my last month long assignment beofre retiring on July 31. Regarding the comment about hull shape, I suspect the Klepper chined hull is a little slower than a hard shell canoe or kayak hull. However, I also understand from David Valverde, owner of Balogh Sail Designs, and a long time Klepper sailor, that putting a 3rd or 4th sponson under the Klepper floorboard, and inflating them will round out the bottom of the hull and improve both floatation and hull shape to improve saililng speed. I do have a couple of spare sponsons (from my original 1965 Klepper hull, which I scrapped due to the deterioration of the original natural rubber) that I hope to try later on this summer. I'll report on the success of this after I try it.

Chris

_________________
1965 Klepper Aerius 2 with 2005 Long Haul hull
1965 Klepper S4 sail rig, with 14 sq ft jib; Sail Rite 32 sq ft genoa; and 41 sq ft main
BSD/BOSS-Wilkes modified outriggers
Spring Creek outriggers
Souris River Canoe
Wegu 19'Sailboat