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 Post subject: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:24 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: isles of scilly UK
Just wondering, has any body tried surf board sails, or are they best known as Windsurfing sails.? They can be quite large, and would we need to stand up to get full advantage of the lift they provide? Their mast seem to bend.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:45 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I've been thinking about it, actually. And my understanding is that the BSD sails were based loosely on windsurf technology...

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:07 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: isles of scilly UK
Yes they look interestingm their masts are tapered so they are a smaller dioameter at the top than the bottom, the sail slips on the mast, the mast goes onto a fitting on the board so if the surfboard sail is tried perhaps a ply board clamped to the front of the coaming will accept fhe correct mast something like my Pacific Action mount. Although i am close to the sea owing to my wifes illness i didn,t get out at all this year but if she improves next year i might try a surfboard sail by borrowing one. I have also seen somewhere that BSD based their sail on the surfboard one and not the batwing. I have a Russiou sail which might be similar.


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Last edited by john allsop on Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Windsurfing SAILS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:32 am 
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
That appears to have only one batten.

One of the great attractions of windsurfing sails, for me, is that their masts come apart. This would mean that, like a BSD rig, they could be packed into only 4-5 feet long.

An interesting aspect of windsurf sails is that, rather than reefing, they are designed to spill wind. That is a function of their semi-gaff shape and their flexible mast: in a gust or an overpowering wind, the theory is that the top of the mast flexes, reducing the downhaul tension and allowing the squar-ish top of the sail to spill wind-- which both reduces effective sail area and lowers the center of effort. I would guess that there are limitations to this effectiveness, but it sounds to me like it would work to some degree and it makes for a nifty bit of engineering.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:46 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
I'm pretty sure the BSD rig is based on a windsurfer sail. I remember hearing this years ago when Balogh first created these sails, and I heard it again recently, I think from both Chris T. and Mark at Long Haul. Is that right Chris, did you mention this recently?

I've come to really like my new BSD sail, more than I thought I would. It's more forgiving than I thought it would be. Perhaps this is the nature of the batwing. Perhaps it's the inherent design of all sails to put less pressure up top and more driving force down below. I do like the traditional canoe batwing sails as well - at least in theory as I've never actually sailed one. I've sailed in a traditional sailing canoe with a dual batwing rig and it was great - it seemed fantastically efficient while being quite forgiving.

To see some of these rigs search for Batwing sails and look at images, some great historical stuff and a lot of good BSD pictures as well.

Here's a link I stumbled upon while doing the above search. http://www.thecheappages.com/alone_fenger/appendix.html It gives some dimensions to the Yakaboo, a pretty famous sailing canoe, and it's batwing sail rig. There's also a small excerpt from Fenger's 1000 mile sail in the Caribbean that is worth reading. It describes a little of the boats layout and how it was sailed without a rudder but with a sliding centerboard.

In other thoughts recently, I was surprised to realize that the schooner rigs which many of our members have, total 60 sq. ft. - a 36' BSD and a 24' BSD. That's only 5 sq. ft. more than the Klepper S2 rig... it certainly looks like a lot more sail. That means that you, Chris W. are flying more sail than any of us with that giant genoa of yours. How's that going anyway?

John that's a pretty neat looking sail. I don't remember seeing that one before. I think if you can make the mast fit it would definitely be worthwhile playing with a windsurfer sail or two. By the way, were you ever able to get that crazy sail from Mick to work?

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:54 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
DLee wrote:
I'm pretty sure the BSD rig is based on a windsurfer sail. I remember hearing this years ago when Balogh first created these sails, and I heard it again recently, I think from both Chris T. and Mark at Long Haul. Is that right Chris, did you mention this recently?


Yes, I think I did.

DLee wrote:
Here's a link I stumbled upon while doing the above search. http://www.thecheappages.com/alone_fenger/appendix.html It gives some dimensions to the Yakaboo, a pretty famous sailing canoe, and it's batwing sail rig. There's also a small excerpt from Fenger's 1000 mile sail in the Caribbean that is worth reading. It describes a little of the boats layout and how it was sailed without a rudder but with a sliding centerboard.

In other thoughts recently, I was surprised to realize that the schooner rigs which many of our members have, total 60 sq. ft. - a 36' BSD and a 24' BSD. That's only 5 sq. ft. more than the Klepper S2 rig... it certainly looks like a lot more sail. That means that you, Chris W. are flying more sail than any of us with that giant genoa of yours. How's that going anyway?


I recently read the whole book (free digital version available online), and loved it. I highly recommend it. (Warning: contains racist observations that are typical of the period.)

You are correct about the schooner rig totaling 60 s f-- only a bit more than the S4 Klepper rig! But the sails are supposedly very efficient. I think one of the biggest issues with the rig is the badly-shaped amas-- if they were long and skinny, and positioned higher above the water, they might produce far less drag.

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Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
I think you are the first person to really acknowledge the 'drag' from the BOSS outriggers Chris. I have yet to try mine.

Doesn't the upward angle of the ama on the water allow it to have more of a skipping ~ planing tendency than plowing through? Or is it just not high enough for that effect?

Mine will be raised about four inches above the coaming with Mark's BOSS mount. I hope to get it out in the next couple weeks. I'll report back when I do.

I don't think there's any doubt that the BSD sail is more efficient than the Klepper sail. I am pretty interested in doing a comparison sail however. The true comparison would be to take a schooner rig such as your own and reef it down to the size of the S4 rig. I'm thinking the main could be reefed to 30 sq. ft. with the forward sail at 24 sq. ft. - that's 54/55, BSD/S4... that would be a fun thing to do.

The simplicity and efficiency of the BSD is fantastic, but I love the look of the S4 when sailing.

d

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Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:35 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
That sounds like one reef in each. There is a significant decrease in power when that is done.

"Skipping"?... more like plowing. The sails leverage those things into the water, and the thing is pretty slow when dragging them along. I think the best approach may be to do what you are doing-- raise them a bit higher, and then hike out and treat the boat like a pseudo-IC10-- balancing to try to keep both amas out of the water.

If you can find two enthusiastic seven year olds and stick them on the gunwale by the front cockpit, they make good rail meat :D

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:55 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
I guess I was going on the assumption that the schooner rig used 36 and 24 sq. ft. sails... and the larger would be reefed to 30 sq. ft.

But now that I've taken the time to look at the BSD website I see that the schooner combo is 32' and 24'.

I kinda like the idea of two 36's... ha.

What's your rig Chris?

Yeah I'll add the two 7 year olds to make the one 14 yr. old I have... I think he'll do fine if I can just get him out there!

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:33 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I'm guessing that the weights of the seven year olds and the 14 y o would have the same relation as their ages, actually :D

When I got my rig, I don't think that the 36 was offered, yet. I think the 36 was one of the last things that mark balogh added to the product line before he sold out.

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:50 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: isles of scilly UK
Dennis, Chris T and members although i live about 87 steps from a slip which goes down to the beach at Porthcressa St Marys Isles of Scilly, the slip goes virtually to the water at high tide. Owing to problems, the wifes health, i have not been able to go out sailing or paddling at all this year. The only thing i have been able to buy is an electric motor assist semi-recumbant Trike which gets me out for short periods of time, can,t stay away too long. If you havn,t seen St Marys on Google check it, i am in Buzza Street and you will see there is no garden at all just a small back yard, normal for a 150/200 year old terraced house so working on a boat at home is awkward, although there are nice areas of grass close, battery tools required.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:22 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
I remember looking once long ago at the satellite images of your island and street John. I remember thinking there was little space to work. I guess just like the fisherman of yesteryear, you'll need to be out there working on the beach, ha.

Probably correct on the weight idea Chris. I'll have to ask my son what his current weight is, I'd guess but I don't want to overestimate for him; he's a solid boy. I'm thinking he might actually exceed your combo.

So what is your total sail area Chris?

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:44 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:47 pm
Posts: 1716
Location: Arlington, VA (i.e. Wash DC)
I think it's 24+32=56. (Or is that 28+32?...)

_________________
Chris T.
~'91 Klepper A2 w/ BSD schooner rig.
'64 Klepper Passat/Tradewind and T12 restoration projects.
Non-folding: Early '90s Old Town Canoe.
Previously owned '04 Pakboat Puffin II and '05 Swift (prototype), as well as an '84 Hobie 16.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:25 am 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 1109
Location: isles of scilly UK
We all must know that outriggers in the water must create drag and the addition of the weight of the outrigger system could also help to reduce speed. The local people in the Med and Pacific usually had an outrigger on one side and tried to keep it above the water and the boats or copies of their idea still only have one outrigger. There were two modern ones on the island last week. I think we brought out the idea of outriggers on both sides to make our craft more stable and less likly to go over no matter where the wind comes from and most of us dont seem to make much effort to keep the outrigger which is in or on the water clear of it by balancing, as suggested we could use chidren but i don,t think they are disposable any more. What we might be getting back to is have both outriggers clear of the water when on an even keel and try to keep it that way by leaning out or hiking so increasing speed, if we want to.


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 Post subject: Re: SURFBOARD SAILS
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:54 pm 
Brotherhood of the Golden Paddle

Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:05 pm
Posts: 1398
Location: South Salem, NY
I tried out my outriggers yesterday on my AEII... what a treat, almost a little too easy, ha. I'll post a new thread with some pics later on but for now I wanted to comment on the idea of keeping the amas out of the water. It's pretty hard to do. There's a very narrow margin of balance with the BOSS system even elevated 4 inches higher than normal. I was able to do it but frankly it's more effort than it's worth. A couple of times when I was really moving I was able to lean way out and elevate the dragging ama. But that wasn't really fun. Sitting on the hike out seat was usually too much counter and I ended up leaning back into the boat more often than out.

The bottom line is that unless the amas are really raised - probably with the aid of an angle in the aka - you can't really sail the boat without them (the amas). When I sailed without the outrigger completely (with the MK1) but with the hike-out seats, there was a nice wide range of lean that could be played with. From trying to keep the boat level to simply letting her ride on the leeward sponson, there's a lot of room to play. You don't have anywhere near that range of mobility with the BOSS. Heck, the sponsons won't even get wet unless you send up some spray from the bow.

I wish there were an easy way to meld the Hobie Sidekick idea with the BSD BOSS... but I don't see it.

d

_________________
Klepper Aerius II
Klepper T9
Long Haul MK1 Expedition 'light'
Klepper S4 sail rig
Kayaksailor 1.6 +genoa
BSD 36HP


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